D&D 5E (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Greg Benage]

The question I'm increasingly asking myself: If the rationale for the aid and spiritual weapon nerfs is that they became "automatic" or "must-have" choices, what are the bless and spirit guardians nerfs going to look like?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I know it wont happen. What i want is ALL spells to just be rejigged, so when preped(or known for known classes) the spell can be at will, 1/sr then spell slot, or just spell slot.

Like if you prep detect magic you can do it at will no need to use a slot, if you prep this 1st level guidance you can cast it 1/ short rest for free but can use spell slots to do it again... tasha's laugh ALWAYS costs a slot...

I actually like this idea a lot. It could be the basis for a simpler caster. "Here's some spells, you can cast them once per short rest. You can cast it again but you're burned out until you take a long rest". More "caster-y" than a warlock without the issue of having to pick invocations/pact/patron.

 

[Stalker0]

The question I'm increasingly asking myself: If the rationale for the aid and spiritual weapon nerfs is that they became "automatic" or "must-have" choices, what are the bless and spirit guardians nerfs going to look like?

This is my issue with the partial nature of the packet. If you ask me if spiritual weapon is good now, it’s a strong no.

But show me a scenario where bless and spirit guardians are also nerfed, and some other spells buffed and suddenly I might go “ok they are increasing the effective variety of the cleric, I can get behind this”.

That context is very important

 

[mellored]

how is that built in again, I am loseing you.

If you need to roll a 11 to succeed, then guidance is not used on 11 to 20.
And it's useless on a roll of 1 to 6.

So, it only works on rolls between 7,8,9, and 10. It can only trigger on 20% of the rolls.
And then the d4 is not guaranteed to actually make the difference.

So, effectively, once every 10 rolls, you turn a failure into a success.

Really, people should be spamming the help action. It's a lot more powerful.

 

[Stalker0]

Really, people should be spamming the help action. It's a lot more powerful.

1) help requires proficiency in the skill.
2) guidance stacks with help. Why settle for one when you can have both?
3) help does not make higher dcs possible like guidance does

 

[mellored]

To me its not the fact that guidance increases the odds of a DC 15 or 20 check that makes it so powerful. It's the fact that it suddenly puts DC 25 or DC 30 checks from "nearly impossible" to "distinctly in the realm of possibility".

Ok, well that's a bit different from spamming it.

Hmmm....

Guidance: reaction. When a player rolls an ability check with disadvantage, give them advantage on the check, canceling the disadvantage.

 

[Greg Benage]

ut show me a scenario where bless and spirit guardians are also nerfed, and some other spells buffed and suddenly I might go “ok they are increasing the effective variety of the cleric, I can get behind this”.

Yeah, that's how I'm starting to think about it. What would a bless nerf need to look like for this spiritual weapon to be a compelling option for my concentration. Probably a standard casting baseline of "one target, +1d4 to attack or save once per turn for the duration." Spirit guardians down to 1d8/save for half in the AoE. Maybe 2d8 if you lose the movement debuff?

 

[mellored]

1) help requires proficiency in the skill.
2) guidance stacks with help. Why settle for one when you can have both
3) help does not make higher dcs possible like guidance does

How about...

Guidance, action: as part of this spell you take the help action to assist with skill. The target can reroll one of their dice.

Or perhaps
Guidance, action: as part of this spell you take the help action to assist with skill. The target can't roll less than twice your ability score.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok, well that's a bit different from spamming it.

Hmmm....

Guidance: reaction. When a player rolls an ability check with disadvantage, give them advantage on the check, canceling the disadvantage.

They could make it something simply like:

Range: 60, one target making a skill check gains the benefit of the help action.

Aka the benefit is the range and that you can help without needing proficiency, but otherwise it’s nothing another pc couldn’t do in most situations. That’s more cantrip appropriate to me. It’s still spammy but at least it’s not breaking bounded accuracy

 

[mellored]

They could make it something simply like:

Range: 60, one target making a skill check gains the benefit of the help action.

Aka the benefit is the range and that you can help without needing proficiency, but otherwise it’s nothing another pc couldn’t do in most situations. That’s more cantrip appropriate to me. It’s still spammy but at least it’s not breaking bounded accuracy

I'm not sure the range makes sense.

Being able to help without proficiency sounds good. Doesn't stop the spam, but keeps bounded accuracy.