OneDnD December 1st UA Spell changes

[Neonchameleon]

Do you really think I have not? I mean, you and I have discussed played 5e for a decade now, dating back to the early playtest. Did you really think, what, challenging my experience with 5e was the right challenge to be making in this thread? Because if so, this discussion probably needs to end.

I meant try comparing the cleric to other classes. Because so far as I can tell you're saying "Wizards are better at this one aspect of the game they focus on than clerics despite the fact clerics are pretty good at it therefore clerics should be buffed".

 

[James Gasik]

Ok so, Clerics. Clerics have less utility than Wizards, and do less damage. The reason they have less utility and deal damage is because they have better defenses (slightly more hit points, better AC without investment). Of course, to use the utility and damage they do have requires them to be in melee range, where, presumably, they're going to be targeted more, especially by enemies who recognize that they have the ability to heal.

I don't know, I think at that point, "better defense" feels kind of zero sum, since you only have to have it because it was decided that Clerics shouldn't have much range on their spells.

The real reason to make Cleric damage and utility options weaker than the Wizard's is because otherwise, you'd be using them and not being the party healbot, lol. It sounds like backhanded niche reinforcement to me.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Of course, to use the utility and damage they do have requires them to be in melee range, where, presumably, they're going to be targeted more, especially by enemies who recognize that they have the ability to heal.

How much actually does require them to be in melee range? Healing Word got rid of most of that restriction. Lesser Restoration and Revivify do, I'll grant. And Spirit Guardians. But the Laser Cleric is definitely a thing.

 

[Galandris]

If you're muttering, the spell automatically fails.

"Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."

That's very audible and clear, so if the Count can understand the language that the cleric is praying in, he's going to understand, "Oh highest god, help my friend persuade the count to do as we wish." or whatever the prayer is.

Granted I was more imagining, as we picture cleric spamming Guidance "Maytheforcebewithyou... (wait 5 mississipis until the end of the round) Maytheforcebewithyou (wait 5 mississipis)"

 

[Henadic Theologian]

This is my perspective. If WOTC had nerfed spirit guardians, spirtual weapon, and bless, but buff a number of other spells....I could dig it. That would shake up the cleric a bit, which would be great.

But this is just a lame change. Spiritual weapon won't see much see in comparison now that it fights for the all important concentration slot. I think it will be bless and SG all the way.

That the problem with concentration, far, far too many spells rely on it, making too many of them unused.

Also the Divine Spell in need of the most change is Astral Projection and Planar Ally.

 

[Mistwell]

I meant try comparing the cleric to other classes. Because so far as I can tell you're saying "Wizards are better at this one aspect of the game they focus on than clerics despite the fact clerics are pretty good at it therefore clerics should be buffed".

I'm just saying they should not be nerfed! They had one, boring, routine method of doing DECENT (not great) damage and that one method got nerfed.

You keep calling that mid-level ability where they can add 1d8 once per round a buff, but it's been there all the time in the subclasses. And yeah now it's either melee weapon or spell but it was always being used that way effectively anyway - whatever path you were choosing was the one you'd be using anyway.

 

[tetrasodium]

That the problem with concentration, far, far too many spells rely on it, making too many of them unused.

Also the Divine Spell in need of the most change is Astral Projection and Planar Ally.

I agree with the bolded bit entirely but think there is an easy test to decide if a spell deserves concentration or not. Spirit guardians by coincidence fails that test in a way that justifies it being concentration.

Spoiler: Specifically a test like this

• does this ongoing spell make my alliesawesome?
  • If yes it probably doesn't deserve concentration
• is this ongoing spell save or lose?
  • If yes it probably does deserve concentration
• Is this ongoing spell primarily to make the caster themselves awesome?(ie huge & efficient damage numbers notjust triggering an elemental vulnerability in a group that happens to have no other PCs capable of using it)
  • If yes it probably does deserve concentration & the effects themselves might need a hard look to decide if they are too good in aggregate on top of unlimited cantrips

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Can anyone think of any spell that is currently concentration, but maybe doesn't need to be? Perhaps they should remove concentration from some of the boring/unused ones.

I never had much of a problem with Spiritual Weapon as it was, but I can't say that I mind this change much. Better for a backline than a frontline Cleric now, which there's an option for, so it's still good.

 

[James Gasik]

Can anyone think of any spell that is currently concentration, but maybe doesn't need to be? Perhaps they should remove concentration from some of the boring/unused ones.

I never had much of a problem with Spiritual Weapon as it was, but I can't say that I mind this change much. Better for a backline than a frontline Cleric now, which there's an option for, so it's still good.

Buff spells definitely. I rarely see them used because casters generally have better uses for their concentration. I realize that concentration was added to prevent people from layering buffs on themselves, but now I rarely see any used, even ones that would obviously benefit the non-magical fighty characters.

Enlarge for example. +1d4 damage for one guy for a fight is so incredibly minor of a buff it really doesn't need concentration as a limiter.

Or how about Fly? "Oh man, it would be useful if I could just cast fly on a few of you guys, or give the melee flight when fighting those [insert flying enemy here], but...yeah sorry, I need it for my hypnotic pattern/sleet storm/whatever else."

 

[James Gasik]

How much actually does require them to be in melee range? Healing Word got rid of most of that restriction. Lesser Restoration and Revivify do, I'll grant. And Spirit Guardians. But the Laser Cleric is definitely a thing.

A few spells I could see wanting to cast as needed; yeah, some of these have long durations, but you might not know you need them beforehand. Protection from Poison, Protection from Energy. Remove Curse could totally come up in a fight. Freedom of Movement. Greater Restoration. Most real healing, like Cure Wounds, Regeneration, or Power Word: Heal, though I realize there are other choices, and a lot of people seem to think that using a spell slot to Healing Word on a guy who dropped to 0 is perfectly fine- my experience is that they tend to fall over again not even 2 seconds later, lol.

 

[Clint_L]

Ok so, Clerics. Clerics have less utility than Wizards, and do less damage.

I don't agree with either of those statements. Clerics can heal. Wizards can't. What's the most important utility in the game? Healing. And you can spec either class to be pretty strong DPS.

Put it another way: the one class every party would like to have is a cleric.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't agree with either of those statements. Clerics can heal. Wizards can't. What's the most important utility in the game? Healing. And you can spec either class to be pretty strong DPS.

Put it another way: the one class every party would like to have is a cleric.

Why a Cleric instead of a Bard?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That the problem with concentration, far, far too many spells rely on it, making too many of them unused.

Also the Divine Spell in need of the most change is Astral Projection and Planar Ally.

Oh yes. They are ruining my level 1 to 5 games far too often.
They are in need of an overhaul, but there are other offenders.
Bless for example could need a reduction to 1 per turn you may roll a d4... or something. To balance that I'd make the casting time a bonus action.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Buff spells definitely. I rarely see them used because casters generally have better uses for their concentration. I realize that concentration was added to prevent people from layering buffs on themselves, but now I rarely see any used, even ones that would obviously benefit the non-magical fighty characters.

Enlarge for example. +1d4 damage for one guy for a fight is so incredibly minor of a buff it really doesn't need concentration as a limiter.

Or how about Fly? "Oh man, it would be useful if I could just cast fly on a few of you guys, or give the melee flight when fighting those [insert flying enemy here], but...yeah sorry, I need it for my hypnotic pattern/sleet storm/whatever else."

I still think we need a second concentration slot. Minor concentration you can keep up next to standard concentration, which on top does need a concentration save if you are hit.
All self AC buffs and so on should fall into this category to make them actually useful.
Hunter's mark would also be a spell I'd put into this category.

 

[Neonchameleon]

A few spells I could see wanting to cast as needed; yeah, some of these have long durations, but you might not know you need them beforehand. Protection from Poison, Protection from Energy. Remove Curse could totally come up in a fight. Freedom of Movement. Greater Restoration.

The irony here, of course, is that Protection From Energy, Remove Curse, and Freedom of Movement are all also wizard spells. But they don't have the resilience

Most real healing, like Cure Wounds, Regeneration, or Power Word: Heal, though I realize there are other choices, and a lot of people seem to think that using a spell slot to Healing Word on a guy who dropped to 0 is perfectly fine- my experience is that they tend to fall over again not even 2 seconds later, lol.

In my experience Healing Word is enough to make the character last a turn for a spell slot - and still lets you attack. The best means of healing is preventing the enemy from hurting you.

Why a Cleric instead of a Bard?

Better healing (including revivify), more toughness (medium armour + shields), more damage (remember the bard's only damage cantrip is Vicious Mockery), and the ability to change out your spell list

 

[Maxperson]

I still think we need a second concentration slot. Minor concentration you can keep up next to standard concentration, which on top does need a concentration save if you are hit.
All self AC buffs and so on should fall into this category to make them actually useful.
Hunter's mark would also be a spell I'd put into this category.

Perhaps a second spell concentration slot as if you were 4 levels lower to a maximum of 7th level spells. So at 5th level you can concentrate on an extra 1st level spell. At 9th you'd be able to concentrate on a 3rd level or lower spell. And at 17th level your second one would be a spell of 7th level or lower.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Kind of interesting to see some of the discussion here. I'll quickly summarize my thoughts

• Guidance no longer being 1/day. Love it. SO glad that they fixed that.
• Resistance as a reaction. Love it, now the spell will actually be used.
• Banishment multiple saves. That... that is rough. Not sure if it is a good change. While something like hold person fine as multiple saves, the enemy has the chance to be messed up. Banishment actually makes them safer than being on the battlefield. Not sure.
• Aid, I'm not broken up about. temp hp instead of max hp, but double the number of targets. I can see the reasons people may say this isn't good, but I've never been highly convinced of the old version of Aid at low levels
• Spiritual Weapon, being concentration is a bit rough. Then again, the damage is MUCH higher as the game progresses. I find it interesting that the main argument against spiritual weapon has been Bless, no one is mentioning aura of vitality for instance. I think it is probably a balanced change, though I would want the speed increased

But, one thing I'm kind of shocked not to see discussed so far is Prayer of Healing. This got a rather massive boost. It is only 1/day now, but anyone affected by it treats the 10 minutes as a Short Rest. That really helps this spell a lot.

 

[Xamnam]

But, one thing I'm kind of shocked not to see discussed so far is Prayer of Healing. This got a rather massive boost. It is only 1/day now, but anyone affected by it treats the 10 minutes as a Short Rest. That really helps this spell a lot.

Oh shoot, didn't see that, there go my dreams for them to drop a short rest to 5/10/15 minutes across the board.

 

[Greg Benage]

But, one thing I'm kind of shocked not to see discussed so far is Prayer of Healing. This got a rather massive boost. It is only 1/day now, but anyone affected by it treats the 10 minutes as a Short Rest. That really helps this spell a lot.

Short Rest +2d8 healing! It's an improved catnap at a lower spell level. Very good, at least for that subset of tables that have more than one fight a day.

 

[Stalker0]

Short Rest +2d8 healing! It's an improved catnap at a lower spell level. Very good, at least for that subset of tables that have more than one fight a day.

I think the assumption is that short rest abilities will be going away, so this is really just a solid recovery spell (and no issues with that whatsoever). So it will be a very solid spell, but it won't give you some of the oomph that catnap used to give in the new model.