D&D General Did 5e 2024 Not meet the economic goals set, and if not, why not?

[tetrasodium]

I don’t agree that 5MWD can be forced on anyone. This isn’t Baldurs gate 1 and resting doesn’t happen when players press the spacebar. It has to make sense in the fiction

I went looking for the exact text of the new resting rules on my phone to show ho your claim is mistaken or flatly weong.and realized that it's not needed because you have a higher bar to meet for your claim to be anything but anecdotal at best..when players start acting like this there's not much other than fiat the gm has in their tool belt shy of adversarial fiat because short rest classes have sucha low bar under the unfixed resting rules
The bar you need to meet for your claim to matter on an objective level is to show what in the new resting rules or monk/warlock supports the gm other than adversarial fiat when players decide they are entitled to the ADEU 5mwd their class is designed for.

 

[TheSword]

I went looking for the exact text of the new resting rules on my phone to show ho your claim is mistaken or flatly weong.and realized that it's not needed because you have a higher bar to meet for your claim to be anything but anecdotal at best..when players start acting like this there's not much other than fiat the gm has in their tool belt shy of adversarial fiat because short rest classes have sucha low bar under the unfixed resting rules
The bar you need to meet for your claim to matter on an objective level is to show what in the new resting rules or monk/warlock supports the gm other than adversarial fiat when players decide they are entitled to the ADEU 5mwd their class is designed for.

Whenever someone translates a rule into real pley the data is anecdotal.

However the rules are clear: maximum of once every 24 hours, can be interrupted by combat, casting spells, and exertion and for most races needs to be a location where you can successfully sleep.I’m pretty sure it’s been close to that or similar for the last 20+ years. That seems to place a degree of limitiation on the 5MWD.

I do think that the 5mwd is also driven by table convention though and the risk profile of the game. If the players face repeated deadly encounters, where combat is the only realistic solution and player death is a constant threat then players are going to want to stay more resourced. Where players face repeated PC death and a ‘gotcha’ DM they more likely to take a rest.

The video was mildly amusing comedy but it does actually show why in it is less likely to see this behaviour. Namely - it’s really annoying and immersion breaking and a lot of players don’t want that. A lot of resting convention is about the social contract and that players of long-rest-restore-classes should want to be at least a little respectful of those classes that don’t need a rest. That comes down to communication and social awareness.

Always open to suggestions of how resting mechanics can be improved though? I’ve flirted with the alternative options and found they were just as arbitrary and broke immersion the other way.

 

[Zardnaar]

One thing that might doom it. Once the suger rush wears off the amount of piwercreep makes DMs job harder.

If people don't want to run it you're in trouble. Players I suspect like the power creep.

5E appeal originally was comparatively simple.

 

[tetrasodium]

Whenever someone translates a rule into real pley the data is anecdotal.

However the rules are clear: maximum of once every 24 hours, can be interrupted by combat, casting spells, and exertion and for most races needs to be a location where you can successfully sleep.I’m pretty sure it’s been close to that or similar for the last 20+ years. That seems to place a degree of limitiation on the 5MWD.

I do think that the 5mwd is also driven by table convention though and the risk profile of the game. If the players face repeated deadly encounters, where combat is the only realistic solution and player death is a constant threat then players are going to want to stay more resourced. Where players face repeated PC death and a ‘gotcha’ DM they more likely to take a rest.

The video was mildly amusing comedy but it does actually show why in it is less likely to see this behaviour. Namely - it’s really annoying and immersion breaking and a lot of players don’t want that. A lot of resting convention is about the social contract and that players of long-rest-restore-classes should want to be at least a little respectful of those classes that don’t need a rest. That comes down to communication and social awareness.

Always open to suggestions of how resting mechanics can be improved though? I’ve flirted with the alternative options and found they were just as arbitrary and broke immersion the other way.

No you fail to meet the bar or moving your subjective table experience to objective discussion of the rules. The original claim was that the failure to wrench the malicious compliance ADEU based short rest warlock and monk over to the attrition based adventuring day model while failing to support the gm with rest changes when the players decide they are entitled to a 5mwd because "MyClAsSnEeDsIt".

Pointing to "maximum of once every 24 hours, can be interrupted by combat, casting spells, and exertion and for most races needs to be a location where you can successfully sleep.I’m pretty sure it’s been close to that" shows that you don't even undtrhe thing being discussed because that 1/24hr is for long rests not short rests. The ADEU short rest classes abuse their malicious compliance with the attrition based adventuring day model to subvert everything else with "ok let's try again for another short rest" the second they finish whatever interruption that stopped their short rest. Because the rules still fail at supporting the GM with weasel word clauses like good sleep and umm... Peaceful meditation/prayer or focused study while lowering the bar to what is effectively"are you in an active warzone" for short rest classes that only leaves adversarial fiat once the players feel they are entitled to endless on demand short rests

 

[DragonLancer]

If players try and do multiple short rests, just say that you only rested a couple hours, you would receive not benefit from doing so. The DM gets to say no if it doesn't fit in or the players try to game that aspect of the mechanic.

 

[TheSword]

No you fail to meet the bar or moving your subjective table experience to objective discussion of the rules. The original claim was that the failure to wrench the malicious compliance ADEU based short rest warlock and monk over to the attrition based adventuring day model while failing to support the gm with rest changes when the players decide they are entitled to a 5mwd because "MyClAsSnEeDsIt".

Pointing to "maximum of once every 24 hours, can be interrupted by combat, casting spells, and exertion and for most races needs to be a location where you can successfully sleep.I’m pretty sure it’s been close to that" shows that you don't even undtrhe thing being discussed because that 1/24hr is for long rests not short rests. The ADEU short rest classes abuse their malicious compliance with the attrition based adventuring day model to subvert everything else with "ok let's try again for another short rest" the second they finish whatever interruption that stopped their short rest. Because the rules still fail at supporting the GM with weasel word clauses like good sleep and umm... Peaceful meditation/prayer or focused study while lowering the bar to what is effectively"are you in an active warzone" for short rest classes that only leaves adversarial fiat once the players feel they are entitled to endless on demand short rests

Oh wow, I definitely got the wrong end of the stick then. I probably got a bit confused with the discussion of 5mwd and the video talking about Long Rests.

Your problem is that there are too many short rests in 2024? Wow. Not sure what to say. It seems to run so counter to the typical discussion which is that folks don’t get enough short rests. What is the problem with having two or three short rests a day?

 

[Sulicius]

One thing that might doom it. Once the suger rush wears off the amount of piwercreep makes DMs job harder.

If people don't want to run it you're in trouble. Players I suspect like the power creep.

5E appeal originally was comparatively simple.

The thing is, there isn't that much power creep. In my experience, the difference is the biggest at level 1 because of origin feats and weapon masteries, but they even out over the levels. My lvl 12 bard didn't feel any different after transitioning to 2024 D&D, except that she was actually weaker than before.

The player tools that bothered me the most have actually been nerfed: smites, stunning strike, counterspell. Not all abilities that bother me have seen changes, but enough to make running combat more fun for me.

The biggest improvement IMO is the new encounter building math and the powered up and streamlined monsters. Nothing was worse than struggling running a monster with 25 spells at the table, and then having a pushover encounter anyway. The new stuff is far better balanced, though not perfect. Just this has saved me so much time and worry that I find the revision worth it. Even 150 bucks.

 

[Autumnal]

Clearly it’s the end times.

Scarcely good enough. Are we discussing Armageddon, some sort of Ragnarok, the immanentizing of the Eschaton, a hard-takeoff Singularity…? EN Workd is not the place for your sloppiness!