Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

[Graf]

I think you can apply some simple statistics to compare seemingly "apples and oranges" type builds.

To look at the bugbear; its trivial to compute their average damage vs. a level appropriate monster assuming they use both their encounter and their daily in a fight (go nova).
Provided you've used the % to hit in your calculations (which I assume you would) you can build a similar profile for an elf using the probability of hitting say AC 20 with the better of 2d20 (for the elf) instead of 1d20 for the bugbear on the round that they use their daily.

Re: Dwarf 'n minotaur. I think facilitators judgment will be an important component.

A tie, to my mind, requires there to be some sort of compromise though.

And there may be some sort of undiscovered combo that is truly annoyingly broken.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I think you can apply some simple statistics to compare seemingly "apples and oranges" type builds.

To look at the bugbear; its trivial to compute their average damage vs. a level appropriate monster assuming they use both their encounter and their daily in a fight (go nova).
Provided you've used the % to hit in your calculations (which I assume you would) you can build a similar profile for an elf using the probability of hitting say AC 20 with the better of 2d20 (for the elf) instead of 1d20 for the bugbear on the round that they use their daily.

Re: Dwarf 'n minotaur. I think facilitators judgment will be an important component.

A tie, to my mind, requires there to be some sort of compromise though.

And there may be some sort of undiscovered combo that is truly annoyingly broken.

Oh, there are, there are. But the erratas started to address them already, like Blade Cascade.
However, aside from calculations like average dmg (and if you want those, just look on brilliantgameologist's and wotc's optimization boards) what i was thinking about was difference in options, which obviously an elf has more than a bugbear. Also, most races will be better respectively fo different builds (in this case, the "best" class for a bugbear is *probably* rogue -fighter and ranger also look good, while eves really shine as ranged rangers, say). I think the really great balance of 4e is in teamwork, not single characters. Guys, we played with stuff like polymorph back in 3e, let's not worry too much. Many options is good, it's a project to let people have fun...

 

[renau1g]

I'm thinking 1st level is best (especially in a POL of campaign), My two coppers, I know I haven't been active in this discussion but the idea of a roman/greek mythology and adding in an Imperium makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (... ).

 

[renau1g]

Oh, there are, there are. But the erratas started to address them already, like Blade Cascade.
However, aside from calculations like average dmg (and if you want those, just look on brilliantgameologist's and wotc's optimization boards) what i was thinking about was difference in options, which obviously an elf has more than a bugbear. Also, most races will be better respectively fo different builds (in this case, the "best" class for a bugbear is *probably* rogue -fighter and ranger also look good, while eves really shine as ranged rangers, say). I think the really great balance of 4e is in teamwork, not single characters. Guys, we played with stuff like polymorph back in 3e, let's not worry too much. Many options is good, it's a project to let people have fun...

I was originally against the MM races more of the idea that I just didn't want to see a bunch of "good" characters of nongood races... it just didn't sit well with me as I've always had a closed minded (admitedly) view that players are heroes and monsters deserve to be slain and if we have an artificial limit of the rare combos I couldn't think of a fair way to do it (besides maybe first come first serve)....but as the group has agreed that monsters are an acceptable PC race I think that they'll need to be incorporated as a potentially neutral group (well some of them). I could see bugbears operating as sort of mercanary groups that the Imperium uses (similar to the later days of the Roman empire) hobgoblins as well. Drow I see as the biggest stretch because they are so evil (except after the coming of Drizzt ), but I'm sure a good story can be spun.

 

[Graf]

...Currently I'm more than willing to provide feedback and advice, ....

Speaking of advice...

Stonegod,
What do you think about having one wiki page per character? When a judge approves a character they can make direct edits and then link to that page using the history function as "approved". Then when the judge comes around to check they can compare versions.

Sorry to bug you, but you've revealed a strong tech background...

One page per character with a "judge edit" added: Approved seems better. People can continue to add to their back story, adjust stuff, etc but DMs have an "approved stat build" that's maintained and accessible.
(And you can easily tell if someone has adjusted the numbers and which numbers)

 

[Graf]

I was originally against the MM races more of the idea that I just didn't want to see a bunch of "good" characters of nongood races... it just didn't sit well with me as I've always had a closed minded (admitedly) view that players are heroes and monsters deserve to be slain and if we have an artificial limit of the rare combos I couldn't think of a fair way to do it (besides maybe first come first serve)....but as the group has agreed that monsters are an acceptable PC race I think that they'll need to be incorporated as a potentially neutral group (well some of them). I could see bugbears operating as sort of mercanary groups that the Imperium uses (similar to the later days of the Roman empire) hobgoblins as well. Drow I see as the biggest stretch because they are so evil (except after the coming of Drizzt ), but I'm sure a good story can be spun.

I'm an unmitigated drow loather.
But I agree that if we're going to drow-players we should build for it. Maybe Daunton (whatever version) is the refuge for a good drow cult dedicated to someone like that-naked-good-drow-goddess-in-FR?
Even if you're not a worshiper, per se, you might come just because it's the only place you can go to the shop without getting stabbed.

That's one of the reasons I think it was valuable to get a character creation poll going first; easier to build the setting if you know what it's supposed to include.

[d]-----[/d]

Well. I do have goblinoids in the original Imperium write-up, but their status as betrayed victims of the Imperium ambitions (i.e. the destruction of their home) may not sit well with people.

I think the island of tortuga offers better options. If you have a group of monstrous races who are like a "pirate/mafia gone pseudo legitimate" then it's less of a struggle. They've built a society that is more welcoming of non-evil monsters so it's natural to have a congregation of non-good monsters.

We want to keep the idea that virtually all goblinoids are evil, but the PC ones have a specific reason why they belong to (or are at least affiliated with) a group that isn't.

 

[Graf]

Hey Graf, what form did you see the portals taking?

Something like Sigil? Or Nexus?

At dinner today I was thinking about the Linked Portal ritual. What about a Wayfarers Guild that maintains the cities permanent circle? They also have a well guarded library of all the known circle destinations. They could sell scrolls of Linked Portal to the public. For a fee they could research if there are any hidden circles near where you want to go.

Just wanted to mention I wasn't ignoring this. I like the idea, but in the past people have not loved the whole portal thing.

My current suggestion is a bit of a punt. We have a possible portal network that could come online later (and/or be an adventure point for worshipers of Hermethis) without having a full portal system active at get go.

Also, I like your, character sheet proposal.
Should we have a "math" section? "show your work" etc etc.

To my way of thinking better than having the character judge have to guess their way through...

(Is somebody going to nominate GK? I can't nominate everyone.... )
[Nominator may wish to point out that he started the polling process, produced character sheet and has been active participant on a proposed setting talk page].

This will be my last LEW post until I return from vacation.

 

[Halford]

Lets see....

The facilitators suggestion seems sensible, though I worry about the numbers. The biggest problem with Living EnWorld, in my admitedly limited experience, seems to be the work load of the judges. Thus fewer than six judges seems to be a mistake to me though I can definetly see the point of it in the early stages to get the ball rolling as it were.

I have to nominate Graf for the roll of facilitaor since he has both put a lot of work into the project and done a fine job of remaining impartial. Graf has already proposed Atanatotatos, which seems eminently sensible. So we need a third and I would suggest someone with prior judgeing experience if we can persuade them to hop on board.

As for Monsterous Races I suggest somekind of limiter. If we intend to allow three characters from the get go for example we might say that two must come from the PHB for each player. Personally I'd prefer a greater limiter than that maybe something like players being able to unlock MM races when their first character reaches a certain level indicating they are a steady and reliable member of the community - I'd suggest 3rd which judgeing by LEW would likey require six months of play. We might also offer alternate small rewards to those who choose not to take this option though I'm not sure what form these could take.

I am also with Graf on the Drow, I'd ike to see them remain a non-player race - either for good or if we adopt a level based unlocking system unlockable when your character reaches a higher level.

I also wanted to raise the idea of retraining. If we eventually decide to add new content, especially if it comes in the form of whole books, it only seems fair that existent characters get the chance to use it. Not a real concern aty this stage, but something worth considering for the future.

And finally to briefly harken back to the setting... I am enjoying the current take on this, but one minor point has been nagging at me, can we rename Tortuga? I like the idea I would just prefer an original name. I love the Hobgoblin merchants and their backstory and see them as a rich source of potentail plot hooks. I also feel the five need to be further developed since they serve as such an integral part of the settings background, perhaps with some religious cults having formed around various members who are revered as demi-gods? As for the portal between the Drowned and Hanged Man for me its a little too comical, I like its utility, but would rather see it tied to an odd little ritual or somesuch. For example, maybe it requires characters to offer up a skin of wine which disappears and is tied to a fey creature in some way.

 

[covaithe]

I am enjoying the current take on this, but one minor point has been nagging at me, can we rename Tortuga? I like the idea I would just prefer an original name. I love the Hobgoblin merchants and their backstory and see them as a rich source of potentail plot hooks. I also feel the five need to be further developed since they serve as such an integral part of the settings background, perhaps with some religious cults having formed around various members who are revered as demi-gods?

I went on a bit of a naming spree this weekend, and came up with suggestions for names for all of the islands, a couple of cities, and the Five. Naturally, I wrote it on paper and left that bit of paper at home, so I can't tell you what all of them are. I do remember that for Tortuga what I came up with is "Bacarte". Trying to keep that Carribean feel and all.

I'll try to put in all of my suggestions tonight, unless someone beats me to suggesting names for all of that.

Regarding backstory for the Daunton Five (I admit I haven't come up with a better name than that... but I'm not sure we need to...), I'm thinking that there should be relatively few well-documented episodes in their history, but lots of legends, hearsay, songs, stories that have grown in the retelling, and so forth. That way they can have a larger-than-life impact on the world, but we don't have to actually write up their entire adventuring career. Characters can use the Five in their backstories without fear of contradicting the official canon. Example:

"I met one of the Five once, you know."

"Oh yeah? When was that?"

"I was about five years old. This lady came riding through our village with this really colorful robe and a white horse and everything. We all came out in the street to watch her and wave at her. When she passed me, she stopped, sniffed, and said in that famous voice, "Someone give that boy a bath." Then she rode away. That was right before the Five battled the dire pandas in the bamboo grove."

"No it wasn't! They fought the pandas long before you or I were born. It was before the Acorn Hill giant!"

"There was no Acorn Hill giant, numbskull. It was just some drunken farmhands that managed to set a barn on fire, so they pushed over a few trees and dug some holes and claimed they were giant footprints."

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Woot! All this talk about Bugbears makes me rather happy. (To those who don't know I ran around with a bugbear avatar for about two years on this board)

To be honest the first thing I looked up when I got the new rule books was the rules for playing bugbears (I don’t know why I’ve just always enjoyed playing them) and it was the foremost thought in my mind when it came to voting. (That and most of the races in that section of the MM looked reasonable.)

Anyhow, besides posting about my admiration for bugbears, I do have another purpose to this post…

Maybe its just an assumption but why is it that we assume that all adventures are good? Not every adventure traveling the land has the noblest of hearts… Obviously, it helps (mostly the DM but the players too) but it doesn’t seem like it’s a flat-out requirement if the players/DM know what is expected… Right?