(OOC) The Dog Days of Doom

[Snarf Zagyg]

What is your opinion on the wording of “the magic action” and spells AND features that take longer than one round to cast? See my original post on the matter

I saw that. It would apply if, for example, someone was casting Find Familiar as a spell.

They need to take the Magic action to cast it (because that's how you cast spells).
Because the casting time is 60 minutes, they are occupied the entire time (have to keep using their actions to keep "casting" it) during that time.

But ... here, the spell's description states what the casting time is. ("Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell's Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.")

Except the Familiar Pact provides a different casting time. ("and can cast it as a Magic action").

So the spell's casting time entry specifies that the spell requires "1 minute or more." But the Familiar Pact changes that to "require the Magic action to cast{.}"

IMO, YMMV, etc.

(I don't like it, but I think that's the rule.)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

ETA- by the way, when I say that I don't like it, it's because it doesn't feel right to me in terms of the fiction. But it also looks to me like this is the intent of the change.

I should mention I am also biased against pets* (no offense to those that love them).

*As a D&D concept- I love pets in real life, of course. Wanted to clarify.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I saw that. It would apply if, for example, someone was casting Find Familiar as a spell.

They need to take the Magic action to cast it (because that's how you cast spells).
Because the casting time is 60 minutes, they are occupied the entire time (have to keep using their actions to keep "casting" it) during that time.

But ... here, the spell's description states what the casting time is. ("Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell's Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.")

Except the Familiar Pact provides a different casting time. ("and can cast it as a Magic action").

So the spell's casting time entry specifies that the spell requires "1 minute or more." But the Familiar Pact changes that to "require the Magic action to cast{.}"

IMO, YMMV, etc.

(I don't like it, but I think that's the rule.)

See, what is pushing me one way (besides the fiction) is, under Magic action is specifically says “spells and features” longer than an action. And pact of the chain is a warlock feature.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

See, what is pushing me one way (besides the fiction) is, under Magic action is specifically says “spells and features” longer than an action. And pact of the chain is a warlock feature.

Right. But I read the Warlock features in pari materia with each other.

So if you look at the Warlock features, you will see that they have several that let you cast spells without using a spell slot (I gave one example, but there are several). But the others don't have the inclusion of that language. The language that specifies that you cast it as a magic action.

If you don't read it to actually change the casting from "60 minutes" (or ten as a ritual) to "a magic action" then the specific inclusion of that additional language is surplusage. So why did they include it for that?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Right. But I read the Warlock features in pari materia with each other.

So if you look at the Warlock features, you will see that they have several that let you cast spells without using a spell slot (I gave one example, but there are several). But the others don't have the inclusion of that language. The language that specifies that you cast it as a magic action.

Yeah, the stuff about how longer casting times are a Magic Action each round until complete is just trying to let you know what's happening when you cast something with a longer casting time. I don't think that it applies here.

If you don't read it to actually change the casting from "60 minutes" (or ten as a ritual)

Seventy Minutes as a ritual. It's "Casting Time PLUS 10 minutes" to do a Ritual.

to "a magic action" then the specific inclusion of that additional language is surplusage. So why did they include it for that?

Agreed. I also don't think that it's a very good idea as a rule (it's not like Chain Pact is bad without it). But I think that it's the intent.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Agreed. I also don't think that it's a very good idea as a rule (it's not like Chain Pact is bad without it). But I think that it's the intent.

Yeah. I went in thinking, "That can't be the rule." It feels .... videogamey. But ... I think it's the intent.

Not that there's anything wrong with videogames, BTW. I just have that reaction- whether it's this, or extreme weapon juggling, or similar things- that starts to grate on some "inner sense of fiction." But I know that everyone has a different tolerance for that.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yeah. I went in thinking, "That can't be the rule." It feels .... videogamey. But ... I think it's the intent.

Not that there's anything wrong with videogames, BTW. I just have that reaction- whether it's this, or extreme weapon juggling, or similar things- that starts to grate on some "inner sense of fiction." But I know that everyone has a different tolerance for that.

It's not even "No Slot/Magic Action" as a limited resource, is it? At-Will? And the Improved Familiars are pretty solid, AND can actually Attack (which normal familiars can't, like AT ALL, even with their feeble attack abilities).

As far as I can tell, it's only drawback is that they don't scale very well - they start out tougher than your character, but fall behind.

OTOH, I like how in our game we have it as Benny being the "subordinate" one. It seems appropriate!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

OTOH, I like how in our game we have it as Benny being the "subordinate" one. It seems appropriate!

Mos def! Love the way it's working in the game, and the RP dynamics.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Practically, in combat, I imagine that casting find familiar - even as a magic action - would take a round or two. How easy is it to light a torch in combat, for instance?

Get the torch out, dig out some flint, use an action to light it.

Granted, your components are still on you but, presumably, you have to light the incense? And therefore need to dig out an appropriate tool?

Unless you make it super hand wavy. I pull out the incense and it instantly evaporates into a familiar.

Once again, it’s the narrative that is the stickler for me.

 

[Lidgar]

@TaranTheWanderer for what it’s worth, i agree with what you are saying in terms of narrative, even though my read of it agrees with Snarf et al. You’re the DM here (rulings not rules) and as DM I would do something similar- it takes an action to pull out the incense and light it, then another to cast. Describe it as the special bond Benny has with Max - that he is always right there on the fringe of the material plane, ready to take the expressway back once he smells the patchouli. It’s a special case, but it certainly makes it more believable from a narrative sense.