Well, it is an investigation check which Caer will likely fail spectacularly, but I'll take it!
(OOC) The Dog Days of Doom
- Thread starter TaranTheWanderer
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Well, it is an investigation check which Caer will likely fail spectacularly, but I'll take it!
FitzTheRuke
Legend
If so, that's some terrible use of wording on their part. For the most part, 2024 did a decent job of clearing up wordings on things for QoL purposes, but every once in a while (and twice for Stealth!) there's something silly like this.
TaranTheWanderer
Legend
Well, for a one-shot, I'm not going to be too strict. The issue here is the time factor. I think I might rule a compromise.
To me, it's one or the other: 1 action or 1 hour and we could argue for both sides to find a consensus but for the purpose of this adventure, I think I will call it a "ritual" and say he can do it in 10 minutes without needing to expend the full hour.
Does that seem fair? It adds 10 minutes to the clock but doesn't put you back too far. Maybe @Steve Gorak would have been more sparing with using Max as a 'tank' if he'd known I'd rule 1 hour, so it seems unfair to rule that way.
Edit: I totally am up for group consensus on this matter, though.
To me, it's one or the other: 1 action or 1 hour and we could argue for both sides to find a consensus but for the purpose of this adventure, I think I will call it a "ritual" and say he can do it in 10 minutes without needing to expend the full hour.
Does that seem fair? It adds 10 minutes to the clock but doesn't put you back too far. Maybe @Steve Gorak would have been more sparing with using Max as a 'tank' if he'd known I'd rule 1 hour, so it seems unfair to rule that way.
Edit: I totally am up for group consensus on this matter, though.
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FIREBALL!!!!!!!
I hope it's okay if I offer my thoughts, just because I feel the question is interesting and I like thinking about rules.
I'd read it the way Fitz and Steve had, that PotC allows you to cast the spell as a single action, and that is the exception to the general rule of the spell's casting time. If that's not the case, then I am not sure what the words "as a Magic action" in the description of the pact accomplish --- they become just filler, and the sentence means the same thing with or without them.
I see the argument of naturalism using the spell components, and I agree that that makes what is actually happening artificial.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
I'm fine with the 10-minute ruling. (I mean, I'm fine with whatever ruling our DM decides, but I'm saying that I think 10-minutes is a fair compromise).
TaranTheWanderer
Legend
Yeah. Is 10gp supposed to be the limiting factor? At high level, I don’t think money is an issue. I gave lots of money for spell components but that was a risk/reward thing and the components were the reward so I don’t want to diminish that.
The argument for the language is simply ‘the type’ of action it is for casting the spell for free. But, fair enough just saying “you can cast this spell without expending a spell slot” would accomplish the same thing because you can, then, just refer to the spell itself.
I’m not set on a decision yet, though, and am open to advice.
Ooh! I love rules questions!* I just saw this, so I'm going to go back and see what it's all about and what I can ascertain.
*Except, apparently, opportunity attacks, because I'm an idiot.
*Except, apparently, opportunity attacks, because I'm an idiot.
Okay, here's my tentative thoughts.
First, on the policy. I'm going into this thinking, "It has to be an hour, because otherwise ... that's an endless resource. That seems crazy." So my a priori assumption is that if I read the rules, I will find that it takes an hour.
Second, I look at the specific rules for Pact of the Chain (PHB 157).
"You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action without expending a spell slot."
Now, I immediately recognize an important distinction with other Warlock abilities (invocations, etc.) because they will let you cast spells without expending a spell slot, but they don't have the "cast it as a Magic action" language in it. See, e.g., One With Shadows ("While you're in an area of Dim Light or Darkness, you can cast Invisibility on yourself without expending a spell slot.")
So now I look back at the rule again and break it into three components:
1. "You lean the Find Familiar spell ...." (you learn the spell)
2. "...without expending a spell slot." (you can cast the spell without using a slot)
3. "...and can cast it as a Magic action ...." (?????)
The Find Familiar Spell (PHB 272) has:
Casting Time of 1 hour or ritual.
Material Component of Burning Incense (plus cost)
Not helpful.
Next, casting time (PHB 236):
Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell's Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.
Find Familiar takes One Hour, or is cast as a ritual (10 minutes), when you're casting it as a spell.
However, the inclusion of "can cast it as a Magic action" in the description is deliberate- they don't use that for other Warlock features that allow you to use spells without using a spell slot. That means it is doing something. What is it doing? It is allowing you to cast Find Familiar as a Magic action instead of using the casting time in the Find Familiar description. Exception based rules, and specific exception beats general rule.
So in my opinion, Pact of the Familiar let's you cast Find Familiar in 6 seconds. I think that's ... weird. It means that, for example, if a familiar dies in combat, then the Warlock could take a single round and get a new one. Seems weird to me. Also kind of harsh. Familiars should mean something! Makes 'em disposable.
But that's my best reading. IMO. YMMV. Etc.
First, on the policy. I'm going into this thinking, "It has to be an hour, because otherwise ... that's an endless resource. That seems crazy." So my a priori assumption is that if I read the rules, I will find that it takes an hour.
Second, I look at the specific rules for Pact of the Chain (PHB 157).
"You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action without expending a spell slot."
Now, I immediately recognize an important distinction with other Warlock abilities (invocations, etc.) because they will let you cast spells without expending a spell slot, but they don't have the "cast it as a Magic action" language in it. See, e.g., One With Shadows ("While you're in an area of Dim Light or Darkness, you can cast Invisibility on yourself without expending a spell slot.")
So now I look back at the rule again and break it into three components:
1. "You lean the Find Familiar spell ...." (you learn the spell)
2. "...without expending a spell slot." (you can cast the spell without using a slot)
3. "...and can cast it as a Magic action ...." (?????)
The Find Familiar Spell (PHB 272) has:
Casting Time of 1 hour or ritual.
Material Component of Burning Incense (plus cost)
Not helpful.
Next, casting time (PHB 236):
Most spells require the Magic action to cast, but some spells require a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or 1 minute or more. A spell's Casting Time entry specifies which of those is required.
Find Familiar takes One Hour, or is cast as a ritual (10 minutes), when you're casting it as a spell.
However, the inclusion of "can cast it as a Magic action" in the description is deliberate- they don't use that for other Warlock features that allow you to use spells without using a spell slot. That means it is doing something. What is it doing? It is allowing you to cast Find Familiar as a Magic action instead of using the casting time in the Find Familiar description. Exception based rules, and specific exception beats general rule.
So in my opinion, Pact of the Familiar let's you cast Find Familiar in 6 seconds. I think that's ... weird. It means that, for example, if a familiar dies in combat, then the Warlock could take a single round and get a new one. Seems weird to me. Also kind of harsh. Familiars should mean something! Makes 'em disposable.
But that's my best reading. IMO. YMMV. Etc.
TaranTheWanderer
Legend
What is your opinion on the wording of “the magic action” and spells AND features that take longer than one round to cast? See my original post on the matter
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