D&D General DM Says No Powergaming?

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
My only real point was that there was no "Nobles would never arm the citizenry" precedence, and yeah I obviously oversimplified some ideas of why different countries took different approaches.

How historical precedence applies to a fantasy world is really largely in the hands of the author because why societies make the decisions they do even in the real world is open to debate.
Yeah, the right or duty to bear arms throughout history and like most things was more complicated than generally depicted. The Assize (edict) of Arms of 1181 A.D., issued by Henry II of England, is often cited as the earliest document recognizing the right to bear arms. Aristotle and Cicero wrote specifically about the right to bear arms as necessary to the free citizen, but I don't know if that was codified in the laws of the Greek city states or the Roman Republic. The Assize of Arms of 1181 was intended to support the rapid creation of a militia but permitted them to be carried in self defense. In the Ming Dynasty in China (14th to 17th century), there was a system where a certain number of men from every village had to go to military training and after they were discharged returned to their villages with weapons to help defend against bandits, etc. I suspect that throughout most of human history in most places, the trusted citizens (yeah, a lot of caveats there) were allowed or expected to have arms.

The more relevant question is that how many would have the arms necessary to take on a dragon? I suspect that depends on how common of a threat dragons are. In a fairly high-magic world like D&D, I would expect that not only would vulnerable areas have protections, but as another poster stated above, governments would actively go after the threat, either with specially trained and equipped troops and/or through bounties. Or, given that dragons are intelligent creatures, treat with them to use them against their enemies.
 

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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
The pattern can be broken of course. We shouldn't discuss the political implications of it, but the US broke the pattern with the 2nd amendment, which essentially created a situation where "war weapons" of that era (and their descendants) were mandated as legal to the entire population, and made that a major point of the society's early decision-making and traditions.
"Broke the pattern" may be stretching it a bit. The first amendment was an attempt to codify what many of the founding fathers understood as a right protected under British common law. That was one of the grievances of the colonists. They were not being afforded the same rights as British citizens and felt they had an inherent right as Englishmen to keep and bear arms. The English Bill of Rights of 1689 declared certain "true, ancient and indubitable rights," including: "That the subjects which are Protestants, may have Arms for their Defense suitable to their Condition, and are allowed by Law." Putting the colonies under martial law and attempting to disarm them, were among the main grievances that led to the Revolutionary war.

Whether to subsequent constitutional protections in the American consitution broke a pattern, I don't know. History is long and complicated. Aristotle and Circero both wrote of the need for free citizens to be armed, not only for self-defense but as a protection against tyranny. To what extent those rights were ever codified in Greek city states or the Roman Republic, I don't know.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Re: dragons the government is going to make a sanguine decision - do they lose more people/houses/livestock/crops trying to fight off dragons, or just fleeing from dragons. If you can kill dragons with a few dozen or hundred men with bows, dragons will be hunted to extinction within generations, at least in populated areas. And there will be armies and expeditions going after the remaining ones, even in frontier areas. I mean, jeez, just look at how tiny or perceived threats are reacted to throughout history.
It strikes me that a community that can expect relatively frequent dragon attack would probably have fallout shelters of a sort.
 

The English Bill of Rights of 1689 declared certain "true, ancient and indubitable rights," including: "That the subjects which are Protestants, may have Arms for their Defense suitable to their Condition, and are allowed by Law." Putting the colonies under martial law and attempting to disarm them, were among the main grievances that led to the Revolutionary war.
Yeah, that was somewhat dubiously/questionably used as agit-prop, but as a matter of historical fact, it absolutely never granted an unfettered right to bear arms. The key words are "and are allowed by Law". Don't take my word for it:


I can provide other sources if necessary, but I don't want to derail too hard into a legal/historical discussion which is quite complex.

To be extra clear, the only people the law definitely gives the right to bear arms, were at the time, around 3% of the British population. It wasn't intended to apply, nor applied, to "all British protestants", but rather strictly the upper class, who were already armed. It's also intended to forbid Catholics from being armed to prevent any rollback on the "Glorious Revolution" (I use the term advisedly, m'lud).

However, once that had become propaganda used by the elites behind the American revolutionary war, then it contributed to the notions that lead to making an unfettered universal right real with the 2nd amendment. Hence something something novel appeared. The novelty of the US law is, why, by the way there is so much analysis of it's historical and philosophical roots (it had far more of the latter than the former, as it turns out).

There's no reason a fantasy setting shouldn't have such a law though. I suspect many do.
Whether to subsequent constitutional protections in the American consitution broke a pattern, I don't know.
I mean, it absolutely did. It was novel.
Aristotle and Circero both wrote of the need for free citizens to be armed, not only for self-defense but as a protection against tyranny. To what extent those rights were ever codified in Greek city states or the Roman Republic, I don't know.
They weren't codified at all. Both were talking about what they'd like to see, not fact.

Rome's laws on this varied widely across a huge amount of time, but there is never a general right for even male Roman citizens to bear arms, let alone other members of their society. Bringing weapons into Rome itself was strictly forbidden.

As for Cicero, literally the first thing he said was that the law he referring to was "not written down anywhere but in our hearts" (or something close to that). That might have given you a clue as to if it was codified, no? Cicero was poetically imagining a right he wanted to have, not a real one he did have. Male Roman citizens could however own weapons (most of the time!), and if you were traveling between cities, it was de facto acceptable to be armed, however, you had no right, so if you pissed off the wrong person, they could certainly be taken away with no recourse (especially for non-elites).

There's also a whole lot of stuff about daggers and whether they were "weapons" but basically not really to Roman thinking.

Aristotle was talking philosophy, not fact. Only selected elites could be significantly armed in ancient Athens. When he complains about people being "disarmed" he's talking about daggers and the like, not D&D-character weaponry. Athens has some fantastically bizarre laws that are actually very rarely discussed because of how heavily clash with the notion of "the birthplace of democracy".
 

It strikes me that a community that can expect relatively frequent dragon attack would probably have fallout shelters of a sort.
back to aSoIaF there are SOME places that weather built or not to face dragons, they are really good at it, and Storm's End is the best I can think of...

The keep is a dome. It is metal and stone... oh and it has magic wards built into it. I assume it will (if they ever come out) play a big role in facing both dragons and the evil dead.
 

Clint_L

Hero
I try to take the world environment into account to a certain extent, but ultimately I'm using quasi-medieval/renaissance in a setting that would never actually evolve that way.

For example, the architecture. In a world in which magic is a thing, flying/burrowing predators are common, inter-planar travel exists, teleportation, and so on, there's no way you would get European-style castles and walled cities.

Or disease. Curing disease is trivial in D&D. So is creating food and water. Mending is a cantrip - think about the effect that would have on economies. Traveling everywhere on foot or by horseback when there are so many more efficient options.

Fortunately, it's not a science fiction game, so I don't have to worry much about extrapolating the realistic consequences of any of that, and just try to come up with a fun world in which to adventure.
 



Was it ubiquitous that much of the population was trained in at least some sort of weaponry? No. Neither was the idea that every barony, duchy or county refused to arm their "peasants"*.
Then you are fighting a strawman.

The claim being tested is “an ancient dragon cannot reliably take out an average town of 10,000 people”.

Which they absolutely can, to the extent that it is necessary to load the claim with assumptions to provide a counterpoint:
  • the dragon will attack during the day despite having darkvision;
  • the townspeople will all have longbows;
  • the townspeople will be able to organize an attack in the time between the dragon is sighted and the moment it begins breathing fire on the town;
  • despite having genius-level intelligence, the dragon will not use “tactics” whereas the townsfolk, despite having to coordinate among 100+ people, will.
 

Oofta

Legend
Then you are fighting a strawman.

The claim being tested is “an ancient dragon cannot reliably take out an average town of 10,000 people”.

Which they absolutely can, to the extent that it is necessary to load the claim with assumptions to provide a counterpoint:
  • the dragon will attack during the day despite having darkvision;
  • the townspeople will all have longbows;
  • the townspeople will be able to organize an attack in the time between the dragon is sighted and the moment it begins breathing fire on the town;
  • despite having genius-level intelligence, the dragon will not use “tactics” whereas the townsfolk, despite having to coordinate among 100+ people, will.
What strawman? I rejected your idea that lords have never had an armed citizenry. Historically there have been exceptions. The reason the populace would be armed and trained in effective weaponry may change in a fantasy world, especially one with a sufficient number of monsters running around.

I also stated that it's likely that small villages and towns would be hard pressed to defend themselves. I've never stated otherwise so this supposed strawman goes poof like it never existed. Because it didn't.

On the other hand, just because we don't have real world anti-dragon weaponry it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been invented in a world with dragons. In addition if a dragon becomes too much of a threat to a kingdom I see no reason why it wouldn't be considered war. A dragon will likely not survive an attack by an army given a sufficient number of archers. That has nothing to do with an individual town defending itself, it's a kingdom protecting it's own.

So this supposed strawman is of your own construction. 🤷‍♂️
 

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