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DMG & DMG2; need both?
- Thread starter Theroc
- Start date
EugeneZ
First Post
I can only speak from my own experience, and I've only learned to DM once (like many people here, I suspect 
). It was a very long and torterous learning experience starting with 2e in middle school, all the way through 3e, 3.5e. It wasn't until I was 23 and starting 4e that I felt I could really call myself a decent DM.
I'm not sure how much of it has to do with my age and the people I played with, but I'm going to credit the 4e DMG1 with the most significant part of my growth as a DM. The 3e DMG was filled with stat blocks and templates, and was almost completely useless to a new DM like me. The 4e one is written very well, covering all the basics in a logical way. I remember having many DM-driven questions back in 3e, like "How often should I deviate from the written page?" and the 3e DMG just doesn't cover stuff like that. The 4e DMG explains nearly everything a DM needs to know in basic terms. And the 4e DMG2 picks a couple topics in DMG1 and expands on them, delving into many interesting details of drawing characters and adventures forward.
In other words, I highly recommend picking up a copy. That said, can you DM without it? Absolutely. If your players are anything like mine, they will forgive you and still have a great time. And a lot of the questions answered in the DMG can be answered here on EnWorld or in a multitude of articles online targetted at new DMs. But I think the high quality of the writing and the availability of that much information in one place, makes it a go-to book for any problem you might run into as DM.
As for statblocks, you can get the DC table from the free erata on WotC's site. The two tables you will find most useful besides that are the treasure tables and the NPC/Encounter XP targets tables. I am fairly certain you can find those in other places. For example, the NPC XP table can be mathematically derived by using any stack of monsters. Let's say you want to figure out the target XP for a Level 5 encounter. Just find any Level 5 non-solo, non-elite NPC in the Compendium or elsewhere, and multiply the XP of that monster by 5. That's your target.
But if you're wondering how to actually *use* that information... that's in the DMG1.
). It was a very long and torterous learning experience starting with 2e in middle school, all the way through 3e, 3.5e. It wasn't until I was 23 and starting 4e that I felt I could really call myself a decent DM.I'm not sure how much of it has to do with my age and the people I played with, but I'm going to credit the 4e DMG1 with the most significant part of my growth as a DM. The 3e DMG was filled with stat blocks and templates, and was almost completely useless to a new DM like me. The 4e one is written very well, covering all the basics in a logical way. I remember having many DM-driven questions back in 3e, like "How often should I deviate from the written page?" and the 3e DMG just doesn't cover stuff like that. The 4e DMG explains nearly everything a DM needs to know in basic terms. And the 4e DMG2 picks a couple topics in DMG1 and expands on them, delving into many interesting details of drawing characters and adventures forward.
In other words, I highly recommend picking up a copy. That said, can you DM without it? Absolutely. If your players are anything like mine, they will forgive you and still have a great time. And a lot of the questions answered in the DMG can be answered here on EnWorld or in a multitude of articles online targetted at new DMs. But I think the high quality of the writing and the availability of that much information in one place, makes it a go-to book for any problem you might run into as DM.
As for statblocks, you can get the DC table from the free erata on WotC's site. The two tables you will find most useful besides that are the treasure tables and the NPC/Encounter XP targets tables. I am fairly certain you can find those in other places. For example, the NPC XP table can be mathematically derived by using any stack of monsters. Let's say you want to figure out the target XP for a Level 5 encounter. Just find any Level 5 non-solo, non-elite NPC in the Compendium or elsewhere, and multiply the XP of that monster by 5. That's your target.
But if you're wondering how to actually *use* that information... that's in the DMG1.
I'll take that as: Don't bother until you have the DMG. >.> I have the stuff for 3.5, but I plan on running my first game here on Enworld... I'm more familiar with 3.5's mechanics and can check the DMG for questions.
I had basically been wondering if the DMG 2 expanded things from the DMG without needing you to HAVE the DMG to learn to play. From what you've said, the DMG2 does me little good without the original.
Am I understanding this correctly.
I had basically been wondering if the DMG 2 expanded things from the DMG without needing you to HAVE the DMG to learn to play. From what you've said, the DMG2 does me little good without the original.
Am I understanding this correctly.
EugeneZ
First Post
I think "learning to play" can be parsed in different ways. If you mean the core mechanics of the game, I think the vast majority of them are in the PHB. Those that are not have, for the most part, been eratta'd (the DCs table and the NPC damage/atk/defense table). Mechanically, you'll struggle a bit, but you're not missing anything major.
My post was mostly addressed to the most basic definition of "leanring" how to DM: You've never done it before and never seen it done, and now wish to learn the nuances of how to manage campaigns, sessions, players, situations, etc.
As for the DMG2, I don't think you'll learn much from it. The sections on narrative management and player management really build on more basic topics in the DMG1. And the stat blocks are just that: material for you to use in the game. None of them are neccessary.
The DMG2 is far more optional than the DMG1. So, yes, you're understanding correctly.
It's kind of like having the PHB2 without the PHB1, but to a much lesser degree. The rules are in PHB1, and PHB2 just builds on top of them. It'll be very hard to play the game with just PHB2. It's the same with the DMGs, but to a much lesser degree. You *can* play without EITHER, but the DMG2 isn't going to help if you have just that.
My post was mostly addressed to the most basic definition of "leanring" how to DM: You've never done it before and never seen it done, and now wish to learn the nuances of how to manage campaigns, sessions, players, situations, etc.
As for the DMG2, I don't think you'll learn much from it. The sections on narrative management and player management really build on more basic topics in the DMG1. And the stat blocks are just that: material for you to use in the game. None of them are neccessary.
The DMG2 is far more optional than the DMG1. So, yes, you're understanding correctly.
It's kind of like having the PHB2 without the PHB1, but to a much lesser degree. The rules are in PHB1, and PHB2 just builds on top of them. It'll be very hard to play the game with just PHB2. It's the same with the DMGs, but to a much lesser degree. You *can* play without EITHER, but the DMG2 isn't going to help if you have just that.
Smoke Jaguar
First Post
I think that you would like DM1 better, especially starting out. DM1 has a lot more of the rules and basics. IMO, DM2 helps teach you how to wing things better and do more of a sandbox with your own campaigns.
Another option no one has mentioned is that you can wait for the Dungeon Master's Kit coming out in October. According to the previews I've read, it repeats a lot of the DMG1 content.
DMG1 was fantastic, though, no doubt. As others have mentioned, though, technically you don't need any of the DMGs in order to play. (I *do* recommend the Rules Compendium, though, as it has the 'extra rules' that were originally published in DMG1.)
