Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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Mallus

Legend
Oops... replied to something I already replied to. So, moving on...

Hey [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] - can you point out where you thought I was (somehow, apparently) making sweeping generalization about all gamers? I honestly don't what you're talking about.

What I said was there are gamers who don't a require DM --armed with alignment rules-- to keep them in line, ie to play fictional characters and not amoral boardgame tokens.
 
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Imaro

Legend
It's certainly true that different people might affix the label of "honor" to different things, but there is only one definition of honor provided in the PH -- "not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc". It makes no difference whether barbarians in certain parts of the world use the word honor in a different way, or whether an English dictionary has more than one definition on honor. The only thing that matters for slotting somebody into Law or Chaos is whether they fit the objectively knowable definition provided in the PH. Indeed, the 3e team likely chose to define "honor" in the D&D context precisely because there are so many alternative definitions that could be used if they hadn't.

This definition of honor in the PHB doesn't preclude anything in the example I gave... I didn't mention lying, poison or cheating... and yet it fosters and supports chaos...

I am also having trouble understanding the argument that Lawfulness doesn't imply honor, mainly because the PH definition of Law says that "Law implies honor." To be sure, this doesn't mean a less-than-honorable individual would automatically be non-Lawful overall, as he might satisfy the other components of Lawfulness well enough to have an overall placement inside a Lawful alignment square. But it does mean at a minimum that a less-than-honorable person won't be as lawful as an otherwise identical person who does act with honor whenever possible.

Emphasis mine... who argued it didn't imply it? So if a less-than-honorable individual could be lawful... it would seem to reason that honor is not a fundamental trait of lawfulness... right?
 

Imaro

Legend
Oops... replied to something I already replied to. So, moving on...

Hey @Imaro - can you point out where you thought I was (somehow, apparently) making sweeping generalization about all gamers? I honestly don't what you're talking about.

What I said was there are gamers who don't a DM --armed with alignment rules-- to keep them in line, ie to play fictional characters and not amoral boardgame tokens.

That's not what you said... I quoted what you actually said, here it is...

The idea that players will always choose the expedient option unless penalized for doing so is really sells the community short. You've never seen gamers playing honorable, self-sacrificing, not-at-all greedy PCs just for the fun of it?

And yeah, it's a generalization. But as long as you are now saying you were admitting that there are gamers on both sides of the coin, I have no issue with your statement.

EDIT Oh, and here's another...

(and, I suppose, commenting on how toxic an idea it is that players won't play real characters without a stern, paternalistic DM watching over them and making sure they take their PCs seriously enough)


All it would take would be a qualifier, something like... "for some posters in this thread"...or..."for some players".... that type of thing.
 
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Mallus

Legend
But as long as you are now saying you were admitting that there are gamers on both sides of the coin, I have no issue with your statement.
Aha. You misread what I wrote. Because neither of those sentences is a generalization.

The first says: "The idea that players won't stay in character or play good characters without a DM forcing them to using alignment mechanics is a bad one." This is simply a criticism of conceiving of alignment as a stick the DM uses to beat better characterization out of their players.

The second says: "Some gamers do non-expedient things simply because they enjoy playing their PCs like that".

Perhaps I could have been clearer?
 


Imaro

Legend
As a general rule, I'm allergic to weasel words and excessive qualifier-prefixing.

I don't think one or two qualifiers for the sake of clarity is excessive... and I always think of "weasel words" as lacking in clarity... but it's cool you cleared it up. Thanks.
 

Hussar

Legend
Acting with honor does not (necessarily) equate to acting in a good manner thus why I earlier made the assertion that honor itself is not intrinsically linked to alignment... for an easy example of why, see Lawful Evil.

Sorry, my bad for linking that to good. I did mean Lawful.

/snip
Emphasis mine: Okay, first off that does not encompass all definitions of honor, since again what is honorable is dependent upon various factors, what you seem to be espousing is the paladin's code of honor which is all fine and good but kind of self-fulfilling since the code was created for a character class that is supposed to be LAWFUL good. How about we instead turn to a raider or barbarians code of honor say one that espouses...

Great honor is accorded whoever...
Takes from those who are not our people whatever they are strong enough to claim.
Leaves nothing of the weakling civilizations in our wake but fire and ash.
Attacks their enemy with wild abandon and reckless rage.


Does this "code" make the reaver/barbarian/whatever lawful... does it promote the aims and goals of the cosmic force of law in the world? I would say no to both of these questions... In fact it seems to actively serve and create chaos... and yet a warrior who did these things would follow a code and would be considered honorable in his particular society.

Can my paladin from a barbarian tribe have this as a code? Or, conversely, can this particular tribe have paladins?
 

pemerton

Legend
"Honourable", as used in the context of paladins, samurai etc doesn't simply mean "recipient of honour bestowed by friends/family/clansfolk/etc". It characterises a particular set of dispositions and commitments that can be somewhat generalised over a whole range of non-liberal cultures. A good discussion can be found in M I Finley's The World of Odysseus. The same sorts of idea can be found in Icelandic law codes, which define "murder" more as we would tend to define "assassination" ie killing someone in their sleep, in a dark alley at night, with poison, etc. Killing someone in open combat wasn't murder. (Even in the 19th century a range of North American and European societies had practical difficulty bringing duelling within the scope of the law of murder - the change in this respect can be seen as a triumph of enlightenment liberal values over the value of honour.)

To be honourable, in this context, is to recognise the standing and esteem of others, to evince in one's own action a due self-regard as well as other-regard (eg not being snivelling, not being a coward etc), keeping one's words, offering wine to one's guests, etc, etc.

If honour has to be put into the 9-point framework (not a completely trivial matter) it fairly obviously, to my mind, correlates with law. Besides the obvious textual point in 3E (that [MENTION=16726]jsaving[/MENTION] pointed out), there is the fact that paladins, samurai, monks etc have always had to be lawful, and that feckless types like barbarians and bards are often prohibited from being lawful.

To reiterate a theme of mine in this thread, I think there are tensions between defining law in terms of honour (which is a pre-liberal notion) and then defining good in terms of well-being, dignity etc (which is a liberal, enlightenment, human rights-y notion). It puts pressure on paladins to be played as a combination of Lancelot and Amnesty International, a pretty unstable combination (and the cause of many a paladin debate for more than 40 years!).
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Much of my distaste for alignment comes down to my objection to absolute understanding of moral issues. I don't like it when there are correct answers to right and wrong. What I valued most in manbearcat's PHB is the distinction between permerton's play of Thurgon and my play of Lucann. Both were individuals who cared a great deal about what was right and what was wrong, but they both saw the world in dramatically different ways. Lucann's interpretation was pretty close to classical liberal arguments about the role coercion and diplomacy plays in society where Thurgon embraced a more historical world view and I appreciated this clash in light of neither being particularly wrong or right.
 

Hussar

Legend
I think the whole "honourable" thing actually speaks volumes to the point of the thread. If this thread has a point anymore. :D

We have two camps, one saying that honourable is a lawful trait and other saying that honourable is alignment agnostic. Both camps can make pretty solid arguments either way. Both are supported by the text of the game.

Now, let's move forward though. [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] is playing a 3.5e Barbarian at my table. He has a code exactly the same as he's posted above. He claims that his barbarian is honourable by the code of his tribe. Ok. Fair enough. Because I believe that honourable is a lawful trait, his Barbarian just became Lawful, which means he may no longer advance levels in Barbarian.
[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] are you happy at my table? Has your gaming experience been improved? Note, you've said that it is absolutely my right as the DM to dictate alignment and adjudicate alignment in my game and you will abide by that adjudication. So, I have made my adjudication and you are now stuck as a 3rd level (or whatever level) barbarian and you may never again take barbarian levels and may no longer Rage.

In order to regain your class abilities and advance again as a Barbarian, you must now act in a manner that is dishonourable to you code that you have created.

Are you a happy player?
 

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