D&D 5E Do Fighter Battlemaster Superiority dice feel magical?

[StormbringerAUS]

To me they do not feel magical or supernatural.

It was mentioned in an earlier post that to feel more like combat maneuvers they need to be set up for a particular situation not a number of uses per day. The way I view this is to pull off the maneuver you need to set up your opponent and this is not easy so it in fact only happens a limited number of times, not perfect and the game mechanics just means to making this happen and I suppose to keep some balance between classes (I know a whole different argument) - it is all part of 'the theater of the mind experience'.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Do Fighter Battlemaster Superiority dice feel magical?

They barely feel like maneuvers.

Oh, I'm sorry, I mean: "yes, they recharge on a Short Rest and do something besides damage, only magic can do something besides damage! only magic can be anything but at-will! Only casters should benefit from the 5MWD! Argh! My immersions! They've been mechanically dissociated! Oh! the pain ... the pain..."



Seriously, though, if you look at any medium depicting a magic-using character, and he goes and throws a lot of magic, it won't just stop after doing each trick once, he'll get tired. And if you see a character fighting, and he goes at it full-bore for a long while, he'll get, well, tired. And if you watch a super-battle with some mutants, and one of them pushes his mutant power to the utmost, he'll get tired, maybe pass out.

The only time you see someone use one thing once, or a couple times, each effortlessly and at exactly equivalent efficacy, then just stop because he's out, is when grenades or bullets or missiles or something of the sort are involved.

The limitations on magic in genre are much more often matters of destiny (only the 7th son of the house of Tarrek, on the 7th moon of the year of the lemur, can unlock the power of the Dingus of Dongus and save us from the hordes - or hoards, I forget, of - Dipthididu'dah), or of preparation (we'll need the sound of a cat's footfall, beard of a woman, roots of a mountain, sinews of a bear, breath of a fish, and spittle of a bird - maybe some hashish, too, that never hurts), or of dire consequences (oh, I could easily transport us instantly to Mount Dumb, but if I did, the Nark One would notice the might of my magic and be waiting for us, no, we'll have to crawl in through the middens... or, rather, you'll have to crawl in through the middens... I'll be waiting at the inn, er, performing vital divinations, yeah...), or even just time that'd be impractical in combat (From the land beyond beyond, from the world past - hey, give me the lamp back you stupid cyclops!)

 

[FrogReaver]

They barely feel like maneuvers.

Oh, I'm sorry, I mean: "yes, they recharge on a Short Rest and do something besides damage, only magic can do something besides damage! only magic can be anything but at-will! Only casters should benefit from the 5MWD! Argh! My immersions! They've been mechanically dissociated! Oh! the pain ... the pain..."



Seriously, though, if you look at any medium depicting a magic-using character, and he goes and throws a lot of magic, it won't just stop after doing each trick once, he'll get tired. And if you see a character fighting, and he goes at it full-bore for a long while, he'll get, well, tired. And if you watch a super-battle with some mutants, and one of them pushes his mutant power to the utmost, he'll get tired, maybe pass out.

The only time you see someone use one thing once, or a couple times, each effortlessly and at exactly equivalent efficacy, then just stop because he's out, is when grenades or bullets or missiles or something of the sort are involved.

The limitations on magic in genre are much more often matters of destiny (only the 7th son of the house of Tarrek, on the 7th moon of the year of the lemur, can unlock the power of the Dingus of Dongus and save us from the hordes - or hoards, I forget, of - Dipthididu'dah), or of preparation (we'll need the sound of a cat's footfall, beard of a woman, roots of a mountain, sinews of a bear, breath of a fish, and spittle of a bird - maybe some hashish, too, that never hurts), or of dire consequences (oh, I could easily transport us instantly to Mount Dumb, but if I did, the Nark One would notice the might of my magic and be waiting for us, no, we'll have to crawl in through the middens... or, rather, you'll have to crawl in through the middens... I'll be waiting at the inn, er, performing vital divinations, yeah...), or even just time that'd be impractical in combat (From the land beyond beyond, from the world past - hey, give me the lamp back you stupid cyclops!)

Don't get me wrong, I think magic is pretty dissociative on it's own. The resting is what gets me. As a level 20 wizard if I rest 7 hours I don't recharge even a level 1 spell. If I rest 1 hour longer I've recharged all my spells.

But really dissociative mechanics were embraced in 5e, so I don't see the point in having that discussion. Barbarians rage - dissociative, Fighter's Action surge - dissociative, 2nd wind - dissociative. Monks flurry of blows - dissociative. Sneak attacks restriction to once on your turn, also dissociative, there's no reason it can't apply more than once per turn. Heck, even the paladins channel divinity ability is dissociative (lets you channel divine energy once per short rest). Well if I still have spell slots then I should still be able to channel whatever divine energy I would use for them toward the Oath channel divinity but that's impossible.

So it's kind of a settled debate. Dissociative mechanics are already core in 5e.

 

[Leatherhead]

Here is something for you to consider:

I don't think Fireball feels magical.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Don't get me wrong, I think magic is pretty dissociative on it's own. The resting is what gets me. As a level 20 wizard if I rest 7 hours I don't recharge even a level 1 spell. If I rest 1 hour longer I've recharged all my spells.

Oh, magic gets a free pass. Dissociative mechanics only involve martial characters, and only when they approach something starting to resemble parity with casters. As long as they're inferior, they can be as dissociated as they want.

Also, dissociated mechanics are like obscenity - those who complain about it can't define it, but they sure as heck know it when they see it.

But really dissociative mechanics were embraced in 5e, so I don't see the point in having that discussion. Barbarians rage - dissociative, Fighter's Action surge - dissociative, 2nd wind - dissociative. Monks flurry of blows - dissociative. Sneak attacks restriction to once on your turn, also dissociative, there's no reason it can't apply more than once per turn. Heck, even the paladins channel divinity ability is dissociative (lets you channel divine energy once per short rest). Well if I still have spell slots then I should still be able to channel whatever divine energy I would use for them toward the Oath channel divinity but that's impossible.

So it's kind of a settled debate. Dissociative mechanics are already core in 5e.

Dissociative mechanics, depending on the definition you tease out of the person complaining about them, either exist in every edition of D&D, or none of them. If nothing else, because of hit points. ;P

 

[FrogReaver]

Oh, magic gets a free pass. Dissociative mechanics only involve martial characters, and only when they approach something starting to resemble parity with casters. As long as they're inferior, they can be as dissociated as they want.

Also, dissociated mechanics are like obscenity - those who complain about it can't define it, but they sure as heck know it when they see it.

Dissociative mechanics, depending on the definition you tease out of the person complaining about them, either exist in every edition of D&D, or none of them. If nothing else, because of hit points. ;P

So you're saying they are like lepruchans or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

 

[FrogReaver]

Here is something for you to consider:

I don't think Fireball feels magical.

U are weird

 

[FrogReaver]

Not to me, like a few abilities in 5e they are limited by rest which creates a bit of a disconnect for me (like, why can they not keep doing their manoeuvres?). It makes me want to work more on my manoeuvres that use X number of attacks for some effect.

K. But whether a mechanic is dissociative doesn't depend on whether you find that they create a disconnect for you. Unless we want to redefine dissociative to "any mechanic that cbwjm finds a disconnect with".

I also want to encourage you on that X attacks for some effect mechanic because it sounds pretty cool.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Unless we want to redefine dissociative to "any mechanic that cbwjm finds a disconnect with"

As good a definition as any, and more honest than most.

I don't think Fireball feels magical.

Because it mostly just feels hot?

 

[Leatherhead]

Because it mostly just feels hot?

Because it is basically just a bomb.

Contrast it with Flaming Sphere, where you create ball of fire, and then mentally control it to move around the room. That spell actually feels magical.