Do nonmagical 1/day abilities damage suspension of disbelief?

[jdrakeh]

Why do we pick this issue to be the "I just can't get past it"? If everything up to this point is swallowable, and the line is here, then there's nothing I can tell you.

This is what gets me, too, I guess. It seems that there are literally hundreds of ways that the D&D rules have deviated from real life in very noticeable ways since the first release of the game in 1974. Why are people honing in on this issue now, and why only in this specific instance? My guess is that it's simply more self-justification of dislike for the new edition.

 

[Felix]

I guess this just shows how desperate and irrational some people get.

If you're going to take this attitude, don't do it as an aside to someone who agrees with you. Think someone is being desperate and irrational? Say it to their face.

Why do we pick this issue to be the "I just can't get past it"? If everything up to this point is swallowable, and the line is here, then there's nothing I can tell you.

Part of the allure of fantasy for me is the idea that man can overcome the fantastic. Is there a dragon that flies, has claws the size of scythes, breathes fire, and casts magic spells? Sweet! How does the captain of the guard manage to slay him? That's what I'm interested in. That's what I want to be able to explain. How does the mundane conquer the inexplicable; this may be why I like Howard's Conan stories, because they're about a man, albeit an extraordinary man, who faces and defeats the supernatural.

So while I may accept magical hand-waving for dragons, fireballs and giant centipedes, I'm not going to like it as much for Guardsman Billy who can't hit people hard twice.

 

[xechnao]

Okay, this is pointless. All I'm trying to say is, I can creatively explain any of these things into real world terms. If others can't, it's a shame.

Why is it a shame not to like this kind of "interface"? Perhaps they do not like it since they can see how a better role playing interface could have been like. Why is this a shame to you again?

 

[mmadsen]

TWhy are people honing in on this issue now, and why only in this specific instance?

People are obviously homing in on this issue now because 4E is new, and it made a big change to the game. I don't think it's a mystery.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, I agreed with you in that post above: Stunning Fist and Defensive Roll are less plausable abilities. This means I do not want them common in my game.

I bet you can too. But they're not part of the central game mechanics like At-Will, Encounter and Daily Exploits are for 4e. Would you agree to that?

Hmm. Rage is the core mechanic for the Barbarian; Stunning Fist has been one of the major abilities of the Monk since his inception. That's one central class mechanic for 2 of the 4 non-spellcasting classes. (And of course, in 3e, there are many more spellcasting classes than otherwise. Rangers, for example, can't just shoot a volley of arrows all day -- they have to use a spell slot to prepare Arrow Storm. In 3e, these limited-use combat maneuvers were disguised as spells.)

I guess you can ban Monks & Barbarians, and prohibit Rogues from taking Defensive Roll, but ... why not just wave the hands? It's a game, it's allowed to be somewhat game-like.

Cheers, -- N

 

[cangrejoide]

If you're going to take this attitude, don't do it as an aside to someone who agrees with you. Think someone is being desperate and irrational? Say it to their face.

I though I just did that.

I don't know how to say it more 'to their face' than that.

Are you suggesting I send them a PM?

 

[Rechan]

Part of the allure of fantasy for me is the idea that man can overcome the fantastic. Is there a dragon that flies, has claws the size of scythes, breathes fire, and casts magic spells? Sweet! How does the captain of the guard manage to slay him?

And I would argue that unless the captain of the guard is a PC, he's not. He doesn't even have a PC class, so he can't. And if he's a PC, then he's not normal. He's a PC. He's special. And that specialness means he gets to break the rules of the world, or whatever. So by nature, he is not mundane.

And I believe that is the assumption that the Core has: PCs break the rules because they are PCs. They have destiny or whatever.

If you're going to take this attitude, don't do it as an aside to someone who agrees with you. Think someone is being desperate and irrational? Say it to their face.

This wasn't meant for me, but I'll go ahead and respond to it: I think getting hung up on this issue is silly. There, I said it directly to you: not being able to get past this, and having your suspension of disbelief broken by it, is silly.

We're playing a game. An abstract creation, sitting in a basement with our friends pretending to be elves and wizards, moving plastic or pewter around on a checkerboard. So I just can't take you seriously when you say that it breaks your disbelief because x can happen but y can't in the above environment. It's like making an issue about how knight can only move in an L shaped pattern, but the bishop being able to move diagonal.

I'm sorry if you don't want to hear that, and I don't mean to dismiss the way you feel, but that's how I feel on the matter.

And furthermore, if the "Fighters using Dailies" bothers you, and (more importantly) does not meet your needs of "The normal overcoming the unnormal", then perhaps 4th edition is not for you. Perhaps you should play something that better suits your needs as a gamer.

(Hell, there are two games I'd play over D&D, so I understand what it means to play what suits you best.)

 

[Agamon]

Of course not, but let me reiterate:

No one said those maneuvers should be easy or that there should always be an opening for them. The problem is that the player has exactly one use per day (or per encounter), and he can choose when that one use works.

Ideally we'd have a system where opportunities opened up with some randomness, but without a lot of laborious rolling, adding modifiers, checking charts, etc., so that "cool" powers got used roughly once per day (or per encounter), but not exactly once per day (or per encounter) at the player's behest.​

I'm not sure how this fixes anything. You'd rather have the players power's happen randomly? That'd wreck my SOD. Have them happen twice today and not tomorrow? Or every 17.5 to 28.5 hours? More bookkeeping that doesn't accomplish anything, yay.

Sounds like you'd rather just have it out of the player's control. Just tell him when he can do stuff, I'm sure he'd love that.

Simple and abstract doesn't bother me, personally. In fact, it makes it easier to create a more vivid description using the ol' imagination. I played 3e and Age of Worms for so long, I almost forgot I had one of those.

 

[Rechan]

I though I just did that.

I don't know how to say it more 'to their face' than that.

Are you suggesting I send them a PM?

To Felix, it is as if you turned your head and said something to me about Felix, while standing in front of him. That is often called "Talking about someone as if they are not there". Because you are saying something about the person without directing it to them.

 

[Rechan]

I also imagine that at some point, some third party group is going to come out with "New" classes that do not use encounter/daily powers, to solve this problem. It wouldn't surprise me if Necromancer did.