Do you consider 4e D&D "newbie teeball"?

[JoeGKushner]

That shows: ???


I'll stick with "no".

And you'll stick on "no" based on what? Your gut feeling? It's certainly not the reality of the situation where the latest edition.

 

[vagabundo]

While you might be quoting what people have said, I think you certainly are misunderstanding their intent behind saying those things.

Let's face it, as life progresses and responsibilities increase, most of us don't have the same amount of time to spend prepping and running a game. While 3.x might have worked fine for a high school or college student who has lots of free time, for someone holding down a full-time job, and maybe with family responsibilities, preparing a system-intense/heavy game might not be feasible. A lot of people apparently thought this way, and gave feedback to WotC that they wanted a game that was easier to prepare and run, while still offering pretty much the same in-game experience. WotC listened, and we got 4e. While 4e is easier to prep and more intuitive to run, it certainly isn't a dumbed-down or t-ball version of D&D. As a happy side-effect, it is also more friendly to new DMs, and thats a wonderful thing! 4e also allows experienced DMs to do ANYTHING they could in previous editions, with much less hassle. Its a win/win situation for all DMs.

And speaking from a personal standpoint, when you make the claim that 4e is "dumbed-down" and "t-ball" D&D, it is insulting, only serving to further the edition war. While I'm sure you're a fine man, it makes you look like an elitist jerk online (and being elitist over a game is about the silliest thing I can imagine). I realize some of what you are stating might be hyperbole, but seeing the same thing over and over is annoying.

I ran a 3.x campaign up to 18th level, and played 3.x from 2000 until around 2004. During that time I was in grad school for my PhD in Neuroscience, and my MD in Neurology. And let me tell you, preparing a 3.x game while juggling research in lab, studying for classes, my teaching duties, and residency was a royal pain in the ass. So much so that we quit 3.x in 2004 (we also quit due to player frustration with the system), and went to Savage Worlds as our go-to system until WHFRP2 and 4e came out.

When you insinuate I cannot handle prepping a 3.x game while I am able to do computational neuronal network modeling, neuroelectrophysiology, neurobiochemistry, and neurology is laughable and absurd. 3.x, while a fine system for some folks, is not the be-all and end-all system, and doesn't provide everyone with what they want. For me, the effort that went into prepping 3.x simply wasn't worth the work, especially with my other life responsibilities. 4e is much more in line with what I want when I prepare a game, gives me more bang for my buck (in a time invested manner), and while it isn't perfect, 4e allows me to run more freeform type games that I enjoy more as a DM. I run 4e games in EXACTLY the same way I ran 1e/2e games- with lots of plot, character development, and roleplaying, with S&S/horror/suspence/investigation based slant. At this point, there is no way I'd ever go back to prepping or running a 3.x game, and very likely wouldn't play one anymore- not because I am incapable of doing it, but because the time investment is too great for the small payoff, and I just don't find the system a good fit for my gaming style.

Nice post and says, pretty much, everything I wanted to say.

3e was a great game, and still is for many, but not as much for me anymore.

 

[Wormwood]

Address the point then. 4E isn't necessarily about making DMing easier, its about making DMing less work. While it was a good game I enjoyed at the time, 3.5E did not justify the extra work it took to run it well. Not compared to other editions of D&D, which include 1E and 2E AD&D. In 3.5E, DMing was more work, more number crunching, and more mastering the system, and without an improvement in game results in equal measure to the extra effort. Parts of the extra effort in 3.5E, particularly in the greater demand for system mastery, made things more difficult for less experienced DMs. It certainly reduced the amount of people willing to run it.

[emphasis mine]

This sums up my feelings on the subject perfectly, and without the profanity I would have used.

 

[BryonD]

While you might be quoting what people have said, I think you certainly are misunderstanding their intent behind saying those things.

And again, No, I am not. I only picked the most blatant examples.

 

[BryonD]

and without an improvement in game results in equal measure to the extra effort

And speaking for those people who find the "extra effort" to be trivial and the "improvements in game results" to be very significant, there are overwhelming reasons to have my point of view.

But, all the extrapolations and distortions aside, if pro-4E people continue to state (as they have) that 4E has things designed specifically for a newbie DM built in then the actual point I made remains and is only further demonstrated.

 

[BryonD]

When you insinuate I cannot handle prepping a 3.x game while I am able to do computational neuronal network modeling,

See, I never insinuated any such thing. On at least two occasions I said the opposite.

My point is that *despite* the fact that I'm certain you can do it, AllisterH called 3E DMs (such as yourself) "poor suckers" and praised 4E for having features that assume people can't handle it.

Anyone's preference for 4E is ultimately beside the point.
My preference against 4E is beside the point.

Teeball is baseball modified on the assumption that the players are new.
As many fans have proclaimed, 4E is D&D modified on the assumption that the players are new.

A great DM capable of easily running a more complex game may prefer 4E. I never disputed that. It doesn't change the fact the 4E assumes you are new.

 

[BryonD]

And you'll stick on "no" based on what? Your gut feeling? It's certainly not the reality of the situation where the latest edition.

I said "no" to this:

Doesn't history show us otherwise? That DMs stopped running games when using 3.5 or this 'deep end'?

I don't see how a new edition after nearly a decade run shows that you are right. If anything it disputes you.

 

[avin]

Training game? For a player point of view 2E to 4E had an easier learning curve than 3E to 4E.

There's a lot of ways to critisyzing (?) 4E. Saying it's a game for n00bs it's just not true.

 

[Umbran]

But, all the extrapolations and distortions aside, if pro-4E people continue to state (as they have) that 4E has things designed specifically for a newbie DM built in then the actual point I made remains and is only further demonstrated.

Logic/analogy failure, Bryon.

Teeball is sort of self-limiting. If one always uses the support of the tee, one will never become a great ball player, because "great ball player" is largely defined by being able to hit an actual pitch. Hitting a 100 mph pitch with a bat is kind of the raison d'être of the game, and if you never stop playing teeball, you'll never be able to do that.

The main point of RPGs is not so simple - it is the entire gameplay experience, which has many facets. RPGs are not in general "about" proficiency with complex, deep, flexible (some might even say baroque) rules. Thus, 4e does not prevent one from becoming good at what RPGs are about.

 

[WalterKovacs]

. It doesn't change the fact the 4E assumes you are new.

You base this "fact" on that some people have said that is the case?

Saying something is a fact, doesn't make it so.

The game does make it easier for all DMs. This also makes it easier for a new person to DM.

Also, everyone that starts playing 4e is new ... to 4e. Similarly, everyone that started DM'ing was also new to DM'ing ... 4e. So, it assumes you are new to DM'ing the system.

The DMG includes information that assumes someone has never DM'ed before. Every DM has to have their 'first time', and for some people it will be 4e. Just because information is included for new DMs, and the system is less work intensive (which benefits ALL DMs, including new ones) does not mean the entire system was designed with the sole intent of being for new DMs to the detriment of everything else.

You've taken some people's defense/support of the system and decide it is true, and therefore made it a "fact" that you can use to point out a perceived flaw in the system, and completely dismiss anyone elses defense/support of the system.