D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[Oofta]

well, then good design and popularity are the same… I am not necessarily disagreeing with that, we started down this road when I wrote that popularity is important to WotC and that is why we have playtests when someone implied that popularity cannot be important if Crawford(?) did not mention it in the interview

For the target audience, McDonalds is good design. I haven't eaten at one in more years than I can remember, but it does what it does well. Good in no way guarantees popularity of course.

I think popularity with your target audience is kind of a given goal of every company and it largely goes without saying.

 

[Oofta]

Agreed.

"Good" is only a consideration insomuch that the game meets a threshold of "Good Enough".

So long as the games design is Good Enough to not lose its current popularity, improvement in terms of actual game design is irrelevant to the playtest goals.




True, but when it briefly got outsold by the clone, it was a bridge too far for Wotc...

Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough. There is no such thing as perfection, especially for a game intended for a broad audience. Personally I think the current iteration of the game is good.

 

[Jaeger]

Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough. There is no such thing as perfection, especially for a game intended for a broad audience. Personally I think the current iteration of the game is good.

There is truth to the perfect being the enemy of the good.

And 5e has certainly hit a "Good Enough" threshold for lots of people.

 

[Oofta]

There is truth to the perfect being the enemy of the good.

And 5e has certainly hit a "Good Enough" threshold for lots of people.

The vast majority of people I've played with over the years would deem it good. I guess my point is that "good" is in the eye of the beholder. Could there be better? Of course, there can always be better, especially for any given individual.

But I don't think 5E is a mediocre edition for most people and I don't think it would have the success it's seen if it was.

 

[Hussar]

who demanded this? to me this is self imposed more than externally dictated.

With 4e they realized the completely missed the boat / have no idea what their players actually want and then wanted to make sure that never happens again


I am more complaining that they did not go far enough with 2024… there is no ‘the fandom’

It is 100% externally dictated. They tried being creative with 4e. And they "completely missed the boat" (despite being the best selling version of the game to date ) and the fandom crucified them for it. They hammered the game and the rest of the hobby until WotC threw up its hands in surrender. Ten years later we still cannot even talk about getting a warlord in the game. Any 4e elements that creep into the game have to do so under the radar and must never, EVER acknowledge where the mechanics came from.

The 5e we got is the 5e that fans demanded. Complaining that you were given exactly what you asked for seems a bit off.

 

[mamba]

It is 100% externally dictated. They tried being creative with 4e. And they "completely missed the boat" (despite being the best selling version of the game to date ) and the fandom crucified them for it.

it was the worst selling edition, do not confuse good initial sales with good overall sales.

It is WotC that decided that the most important metric is sales, that is what I mean by self imposed. Once you make that your primary goal you do need to listen to what your audience wants instead of following your artistic vision (moreso than you have to in any case at least)

 

[Hriston]

so basically apart from illogical, because that does not cause actual gameplay issues…

What example do you have from actual gameplay in which a background feature makes something illogical happen, causing an actual gameplay issue?

 

[Hussar]

it was the worst selling edition, do not confuse good initial sales with good overall sales.

It is WotC that decided that the most important metric is sales, that is what I mean by self imposed. Once you make that your primary goal you do need to listen to what your audience wants instead of following your artistic vision (moreso than you have to in any case at least)

No. It's not "WotC that decided". They had zero choice. The fandom absolutely crucified them for straying too far from the baseline and continue to do so to this day. WotC wants to stay in business and the fandom made it 100% crystal clear that if WotC wants to stay in business, they must stay in the center of the lane and never, ever deviate. The fandom is hostile to any change and has made it very clear that they will punish anyone who tries to stray.

I mean, what lesson would you take from the rise of Pathfinder over D&D and then, when WotC makes a version of D&D that hits all the high points of D&D they become the most successful version of D&D ever? Why on earth would WotC ever experiment? They have been told, in no uncertain terms, that D&D is very carefully defined within very strict limits.

You keep trying to pin this on some sort of corporate failing. That WotC is only doing what is popular for the money. My response is WotC has zero choice. Do the popular thing, or watch as D&D crashes and burns, and everyone in your office loses their jobs.

Given those two options, why would WotC ever stray too far from the well trod path?

 

[mamba]

What example do you have from actual gameplay in which a background feature makes something illogical happen, causing an actual gameplay issue?

there were several in this thread already, if you disagree then another example won’t make a difference either, and to be clear, the illogical thing is the feature working, not the outcome of it

I wrote some days ago already that it is not causing gameplay issues, if you can overlook that the feature actually working is illogical

 

[mamba]

No. It's not "WotC that decided". They had zero choice. The fandom absolutely crucified them for straying too far from the baseline and continue to do so to this day. WotC wants to stay in business and the fandom made it 100% crystal clear that if WotC wants to stay in business, they must stay in the center of the lane and never, ever deviate.

eh, they could survive with half the sales / the level of 4e sales, many companies do. No one strong armed them into pursuing the maximum number of sales

Who knows, maybe iterating on 4e would also have worked in the long run and gotten them over the hump

I mean, what lesson would you take from the rise of Pathfinder over D&D and then, when WotC makes a version of D&D that hits all the high points of D&D they become the most successful version of D&D ever? Why on earth would WotC ever experiment?

that is a prison of their own making, you cannot really argue that people should buy WotC’s TTRPG whether they like it or not, so WotC can innovate

You keep trying to pin this on some sort of corporate failing. That WotC is only doing what is popular for the money. My response is WotC has zero choice. Do the popular thing, or watch as D&D crashes and burns, and everyone in your office loses their jobs.

I understand why they are doing what they are doing, I just do not see them as the victim here