D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[Micah Sweet]

To me, my players having fun is my fun. If my players aren't happy, then I have no players, then I have no game, and I have no fun running it.

I don't see DMing as working for my players, or hosting a party. In short, DMing is not a service industry to me. It is a role in a group social activity that carries some additional responsibilities. Creating a fun environment to play in is one of those responsibilities. Making sure the players get everything they want is not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

An Insight check can be made to recognize a messenger. They're not going to be walking around with signs on them that say "BACKGROUND FEATURE" on them.

What I mean is, in game terms your friend made a roll. It didn't just automatically happen because they have the "gamer" background.

 

[Oofta]

So your argument is, "just change what you're doing to accommodate the PCs! Them getting to do what they want is the most important consideration, and you should be doing whatever needed to make that happen"?

I know that seems hyperbolic, but to me what you're asking for is a nicely worded version of the above. The GMs fun is less important than the players'.

I would just add that even as a player this would make the world less believable and therefore less fun for me. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing if it works for them and their group. Just don't expect it to work for everyone.

I had a really good DM at a con recently but the way he ran the game just didn't work for me. That's not a reflection on his skills at a DM at all, it's just that we all have preferences and ours didn't match up.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would just add that even as a player this would make the world less believable and therefore less fun for me. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing if it works for them and their group. Just don't expect it to work for everyone.

I had a really good DM at a con recently but the way he ran the game just didn't work for me. That's not a reflection on his skills at a DM at all, it's just that we all have preferences and ours didn't match up.

Exactly. I would and do feel the same way as a player as I do as a GM. The setting has to make sense to me.

 

[Oofta]

My Dad gave a radio interview. A few years later, he met a kid in another country, who barely spoke English, who recognized him by his voice alone. What are the odds of that?

Real life is filled with all sorts of weird coincidences, and as the GM, you control the odds. You're not actually expected to roll a d1,000,000,000 and have the event only happen on a 1.

Plus, in a D&D world, there will likely be far fewer active ports and far fewer sailors. If it's not ridiculous for the PCs to find themselves on the other side of the world, why would it be ridiculous for a group of NPC travelers to find themselves on the other side of the world?


Using the letter of the rules, you're not required to actually know the ship or its crew. You might have served on it. Might. And that the PCs are expected to work for their passage. The feature also says that the PCs can't be certain of the schedule or route.

So let's say they find a ship. Welp, too bad, it's not going where the PCs need to go. Guess that feature didn't actually come in handy after all.

It's an either-or statement. One of the two options, a ship you served on or another ship you have good relations with. You can't call in a favor from someone you've never met.

​

Feature: Ship’s Passage​

When you need to, you can secure free passage on a sailing ship for yourself and your adventuring companions. You might sail on the ship you served on, or another ship you have good relations with (perhaps one captained by a former crewmate). Because you’re calling in a favor, you can’t be certain of a schedule or route that will meet your every need. Your Dungeon Master will determine how long it takes to get where you need to go. In return for your free passage, you and your companions are expected to assist the crew during the voyage.​

It may take months to get home in the scenario I proposed, or at the very least get you closer to home. If it's the latter, surprise surprise the sailor meets yet someone else that owes them a favor.

 

[Faolyn]

It can have no impact at all, if you are ok with the inexplicable / implausible happening just because the feature says so.

If you want there to be a reason / possibility for it to happen, it will be a lot more than that however.

OK. Like what? You keep saying it will have an impact, but the only impact you've mentioned is that you don't find it logical--but that's not a worldbuilding thing; that's just your opinion.

it does not matter, the world has to allow for it anywhere, whether the character decides to use their feature or not

Not what I asked.

And no, it doesn't happen whether the PC doesn't use their feature. It only happens when they do, because NPCs don't have background features.

that is not what ‘you know’ means, that is ‘you can recognize’… the feature says that you specifically know the local messengers,

No, it doesn't mean that you know them specifically--unless you insist on going by the type of RAW that leads to not being able to see invisible people when you use see invisible.

that is maybe a handful of people.

Says who? It could be dozens of people, or hundreds.

You know them personally and they are the ones that can get a message to your contact, no one else can as far as you knowing about it is concerned.

Not only do you need to stretch believability to its breaking point if you want the feature to work the way you describe it in your world, you also stretch English past that point

Messers Merriam and Webster disagree:

"To have an understanding of" and "to recognize the nature of" is an accurate definition of the word know, and is certainly as accurate as "to be acquainted or familiar with."

 

[Faolyn]

It's an either-or statement. One of the two options, a ship you served on or another ship you have good relations with. You can't call in a favor from someone you've never met.

​

Feature: Ship’s Passage​

When you need to, you can secure free passage on a sailing ship for yourself and your adventuring companions. You might sail on the ship you served on, or another ship you have good relations with (perhaps one captained by a former crewmate). Because you’re calling in a favor, you can’t be certain of a schedule or route that will meet your every need. Your Dungeon Master will determine how long it takes to get where you need to go. In return for your free passage, you and your companions are expected to assist the crew during the voyage.​

It may take months to get home in the scenario I proposed, or at the very least get you closer to home. If it's the latter, surprise surprise the sailor meets yet someone else that owes them a favor.

You missed the "might" in there.

And you called me a rules lawyer!

 

[James Gasik]

I don't see DMing as working for my players, or hosting a party. In short, DMing is not a service industry to me. It is a role in a group social activity that carries some additional responsibilities. Creating a fun environment to play in is one of those responsibilities. Making sure the players get everything they want is not.

Hey if that works for you, that's great. It's my experience however, that the difference between me writing a story on my own time and my own enjoyment (+/- how many views it gets when I post it online) is different from working on a game world and adventures I want to share with my friends.

If they're not enjoying themselves, I feel I've wasted my time. Now I want to examine this last sentence you typed about "Making sure the players get everything they want is not".

Taken on face value, what is wrong with making sure the players get what they want out of a game? I'm pretty sure you mean that to say "giving the players what they want on a silver platter" or putting the game on easy mode- which isn't the case for me.

The players have to earn the things they want. But if they want to be a Sailor and have at least one seafaring adventure, this is what will happen:

"I see you took Sailor. Were you hoping that would come up in game in a major way?"

"Yeah! That'd be cool!"

"Well, I don't have any ship adventures planned. And historically, my experience with ship adventures is one or all of the following- you get attacked by a sea monster, you get attacked by pirates, your ship sinks and you wash up on some distant island or land of adventure and have to find a way off it. What I'm saying is, I'll give you that adventure at some point, but I can't guarantee it'll be the stuff swashbuckling dreams are made of."

And if that isn't something they want, they're more than free to not be a sailor. But I want to try and give them what they want, even if they have to wait for and invest time and energy into the game and face challenges to get there.

In my new game (first session complete!), I told everyone that I couldn't guarantee that their backgrounds would come up in a timely manner, so I made a generic "adventurer" background they could use. Only two players took it, the other two are a Guild Craftsmen and an Urchin, respectively, because that's what they wanted for their characters. The setup for the game was that they are all characters from different worlds, so the Guild Craftsmen is a repairman from a higher tech setting who took "water condenser repair" as one of his Tool Proficiencies, which led to this exchange:

"Going to be honest here, Tim, I'm not sure that will ever come up."

"I don't need it to, that's my character's background, he repaired things."

"Ok, that's fine." Now what he doesn't know is, I did think of a way or two to make that relevant to the campaign since that discussion, as part of the campaign revolves around a lost civilization of planar travelers (appropriated from TSR's Treasure Tales), so I can work with that. And maybe when it comes up, he'll have his moment of "wait! I know what that is!".

Or not, but either way, it doesn't cost me much to try and make it happen. And there's a lot of very tough challenges between where he is now and when and where that will occur.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK. Like what? You keep saying it will have an impact, but the only impact you've mentioned is that you don't find it logical--but that's not a worldbuilding thing; that's just your opinion.


Not what I asked.

And no, it doesn't happen whether the PC doesn't use their feature. It only happens when they do, because NPCs don't have background features.


No, it doesn't mean that you know them specifically--unless you insist on going by the type of RAW that leads to not being able to see invisible people when you use see invisible.


Says who? It could be dozens of people, or hundreds.


Messers Merriam and Webster disagree:

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"To have an understanding of" and "to recognize the nature of" is an accurate definition of the word know, and is certainly as accurate as "to be acquainted or familiar with."

If you want worldbuilding to be logical and make sense to you, then it is a worldbuilding issue.

This is just a fundamental playstyle difference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you see a campaign as, basically a show everyone's putting on, and the players are the stars of the show. Things work out for them, even very improbable things, because they're the protagonists and we have to keep the plot moving. It doesn't mess with worldbuilding to you because the players are special and what they're doing is irrelevant to probability, at least in this instance.

Several people here, myself among them, seem to flatly disagree with your premise as I've laid it out. As a result, there is an impasse.

 

[mamba]

OK. Like what? You keep saying it will have an impact, but the only impact you've mentioned is that you don't find it logical--but that's not a worldbuilding thing; that's just your opinion.

as I said, if you want it to not be implausible, it does affect worldbuilding...

For you to know a messenger everywhere whenever you want to sent a message to your contact, there are basically two options

• there is a universe spanning network of villains, and you 'know' all their contacts, so that you can go to them and send your message
• you are incredibly lucky and one of the handful or so of messengers you know just so happens to be around whenever you need one

Neither is very believable, so let's go with the first option and a way to recognize them as the more believable one

Now it is not enough to just hand your message over, you expect something to be sent back too, and all of this should not take months, as by then it would be pointless. So next you need a way to get messages across different worlds in a fast and reliable fashion, which makes powerful magic commonplace

So we now have a global villain network with 'uniforms' that members can recognize and access to a net of teleporter stations to send messages across the multiverse, and all of this because your criminal background supposedly is not limited to the region your character is from...

And no, it doesn't happen whether the PC doesn't use their feature. It only happens when they do, because NPCs don't have background features.

this statement makes no sense to me, of course it only happens when the characters use it, but the whole 'infrastructure' has to exist everywhere, just so it is available whenever they decide to use it

Says who? It could be dozens of people, or hundreds.

across many worlds? this is your background feature, there is no way you know them across worlds

Five is plenty for a local thieves guild, if you need more you are already bending the background beyond that

Messers Merriam and Webster disagree:

If WotC meant 'recognize' and not actually know the people, they would have said so instead of hoping you twist it into 'recognize' because if you twist the meaning just enough, the two can be similar. This still does not get you over the hurdle of the use of 'local'. If they did not mean 'your home region' with it, but 'wherever you find yourself', then the whole thing would be clearer if they did not include it at all.

So you have to use two very strenuous interpretations to then get to a hard to reasonably explain feature that works everywhere instead of going the with more logical and consistent reading of it being a feature that works in the region you are from... you are stretching all of this beyond recognition to defend having the ability to send messages anywhere...

Then why does the smuggler specifically mean 'one region' when the two features are very similar? Why restrain one like this but not the other? The logical conclusion is they both are, and WotC learned a bit about how to make it clearer between the two..,

At this point I feel like the biggest improvement in the 2024 books might be that these features are gone