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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 262 53.1%
  • Nope

    Votes: 231 46.9%

Vaalingrade

Legend
This is flawed on a deep level. This game is cooperative at it's core. The implied thought patterns here are contrary to that basic principle of D&D. It assumes the DM has an interest in "steamrolling into uselessness" something a player did or wants. It assumes antagonism, something the designers explicitly discourage and the social contract forbids.

I'd argue any situation where this occurs, it's a DM problem and not a rule problem. And asking the designers to design around, what is widely regarded as, very poor DMing strikes me as very strange.

I hope that DM antagonism is something very few players have to worry about.
The entire spirit of the argument against these backgrounds is steeped in DM antagonism. DM antagonism that D&D has sowed and nurtured for 50 years.

That's the point of the exercise: the backgrounds give players narrative agency and that's not allowed.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The entire spirit of the argument against these backgrounds is steeped in DM antagonism. DM antagonism that D&D has sowed and nurtured for 50 years.

That's the point of the exercise: the backgrounds give players narrative agency and that's not allowed.
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a DM say "I don't think you should be able to do that" or "That doesn't make sense to me", I'd have a lot of nickels.

Not counting the ones I already have, because I've been here, and I think even well-intentioned GM's struggle with this sort of thing. Early on in my DM career. my peers instructed me in the school of "never give players an even break".

My very first campaign was a disaster because my players walked all over me. So I took this to heart and tried to be very strict about the letter of the rules and not let players get away with any shenanigans.

Now, what changed was, this wasn't really much fun. Sure, I'd learned the rules backwards and forwards (having read my rulebooks over and over again) so I wasn't going to get the wool pulled over my eyes, but this wasn't very much fun. Players stopped trying ingenious things because I'd always shoot them down by pointing out all the ways they wouldn't work.

Once, annoyed by instance #391 of the players cakewalking through my bad guys, I complained to another DM, and he gave me the best advice ever. "Why is it a problem when the players win?"

That thought made me stop and rethink my whole approach. Because the problem wasn't the players winning- I wanted them to win, or at least, if they fail, do so in a manner that keeps the game going. So what was the actual problem?

"Because they aren't winning the right way." I said to myself, then realized how ridiculous that sounded. So only the solutions I allowed could work? No, that can't be right.

If the bad guys are taken out easily, there's always more bad guys. Always. There may be consequences for an easy victory if you step back and take a long view at the campaign.

If the players come up with a creative idea, what's the real harm in it? That they'll use this "exploit" over and over again? Who's to say they were the first person to ever think of it? Maybe it's come up enough times before that people have thought of countermeasures?

It's not easy to be a fair GM- a bad ruling could set a precedent you'll regret. But good players aren't going to hold your feet to the fire- you can admit you make a mistake. Or say "hey guys, that exploit is great, but I can't think of a way around it, can we maybe agree not to use it? Otherwise I might have to have my NPC's use it against you, and that might not be so fun."

If a player wants to say to me "hey, my character is a street urchin, would I be able to find a place the pickpockets and street thieves hang out?", "Oh I don't know, you've never been to this town before" may be a logical response, but it's not a very fun one (to me). My narrative isn't more important than my players, and if somehow this spoils a major plot point, maybe I should think about my plot points more carefully.

I mean low level magic spells do tons of damage to plots as it is, forcing you take them into account, so it's not like it's a unique situation. Granted, spells have costs (usually) and background features don't (and maybe they should be fueled by some meta-currency if they manage to be disruptive), but it's just in my opinion another tool a player can use to interact with the game world, no different than a 7th level Battlemaster looking at some guy for a few minutes and saying "yeah, uh, that 'ordinary town guard' you guys are thinking about sneaking past? He's a better warrior than I am!".

If I wouldn't interfere with one ability, I don't see any reason to interfere with the other.*

*That someone might have issues with the Battlemaster ability is a whole other kettle of fish.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think the DM should discuss certain things like how they handle background features during a session 0. As long as you do that, I don't think it's "dysfunctional" in any way.
Given the ever-increasing number of things DMs are being asked to discuss in session 0, it might soon be several sessions-0 before play can begin.

Or you just roll 'em up, drop the puck, and sort the rest out later.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Huh, I thought it was a pretty straightforward/solid reading of the text, but I guess different people have different opinions of what makes sense!
And that's just it: I don't think anyone has any legitimate complaint on how you've read the text. In fact, I think you've read it as (it seems to be) intended.

The complaint is that the text itself is complete crap, and that reading it correctly as written gives players the wrong idea as to how those features work. Either the intent behind the text is flawed or the actual writing is. Can't tell which.
Not "wherever you are", it's wherever you use the feature. Please represent me accurately.
As you can in theory choose to try using the feature anywhere circinstances allow, I'm having a hard time seeing the difference.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Given the ever-increasing number of things DMs are being asked to discuss in session 0, it might soon be several sessions-0 before play can begin.

Or you just roll 'em up, drop the puck, and sort the rest out later.
110% true. One of the 5e books (tcoe?) talks about session zero and you'd think that players are basically exempt from needing to engage in meaningful participation in any way other than later outrage if something they feel should have been covered how they want wasn't back then. The 2024 books∆ would do well to back off the gm as omniscient godlike being leanings by admitting that players themselves also bear significant responsibility for bringing up their pet issues then and that not having one and behaving like adults when the puck drops can be valid.

∆ pretty sure that it's already been said that one of them will talk about session zero.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Great if you're visiting Barcelona, but how much does it help if you're visiting Rome?
Who said I was in Rome? @mamba made the claim I can’t possibly know anyone in Barovia because it’s a place I’ve never been. That claim is proven false by the fact Barcelona, Spain is a place I’ve never been, and I know someone there and consequently know of several other people I could seek out if I were there. The fact that, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know anyone in Rome, a place I’ve also never been, is irrelevant. It’s also possible, although perhaps unlikely, I could have been to Rome and still not know anyone there. I mean, the two things — having been to a place and knowing people there — aren’t necessarily related. In a thread where claims of illogic abound, coming mostly from that poster, I just wanted to point out the faulty reasoning being used.
 

Oofta

Legend
Given the ever-increasing number of things DMs are being asked to discuss in session 0, it might soon be several sessions-0 before play can begin.

Or you just roll 'em up, drop the puck, and sort the rest out later.

For the most part I just explain that I'll make some rulings on the spot and players can correct me if it's an obvious mistake but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. We can discuss it after the game if they want, but I'm going to keep things moving. I'm not going to remember everything, but in general it's not that hard to get the general ideas of how I DM. But I agree. Specifics? Those we can deal with later.

I don't think a DM saying "no" now and then is automatically a sign of an adversarial DM or a dysfunctional game.
 

mamba

Legend
I don't think a DM saying "no" now and then is automatically a sign of an adversarial DM or a dysfunctional game.
agreed, there will invariably be things that were not discussed in session 0 and need a ruling on the spot. That the ruling takes place now does not make it any worse than declaring / announcing it during a session 0
 


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