D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[UngeheuerLich]

No on a caster you wouldn't unless you were trying tom maintain concentration. You will see action and then use a ki to dodge and disengage.
There is a difference between good armor and being able to dodge and disingage repeatedly, while taking a full action and having a good AC. With a 13 Wisdom, 16 dex and Mage Armor I am at 16 before dodging. When dodging and adding shield I will be better than anyone else in the party.

I´d take con saves and heavy (or at least medium) armor over a single level of monk, by multiclassing fighter.

A 2nd level Monk is going to get 8 ki a day, to spend over about 20-25 rounds of combat a day and that is if you are playing 2 short rests and 6 combats. If you play fewer combats it is fewer rounds to divide up that ki.

Again, this is two levels of monk. I´d take 2 levels of fighter before that. That way I get second wind, a fighting style and action surge on top of good con saves. Sorry, I am really not convinced.

And being able to dodge stacks with this.

No. Both grant disadvantage. (At least the current UA version of blade ward does).

 

[FrogReaver]

I´d take con saves and heavy (or at least medium) armor over a single level of monk, by multiclassing fighter.

That's another downside to monk - their saves are Dex and Str. Con or Wis are much better saves than Dex, especially for a caster.

Again, this is two levels of monk. I´d take 2 levels of fighter before that. That way I get second wind, a fighting style and action surge on top of good con saves. Sorry, I am really not convinced.

Also worth noting, a single level of monk gets you very little.

No. Both grant disadvantage. (At least the current UA version of blade ward does).

I've played dodgy monks before and one thing to note from that experience is that if you can dodge on the first round or 2 of an encounter you probably won't need to worry about dodging on the later rounds of most combats. Team enemy usually has significantly less offensive capabilities by round 3 or 4. In that sense the restrictions on using the ability is not quite as bad as it first sounds.

Also, I actually can see the pairing being much better with a Cleric than with a Wizard. The whole Spirit Guardians + Martial Arts + Ability to bonus action dodge on the turn you move in with Spirit Guardians seems really solid. Follow that up with some martial arts attacks while spirit guardians ticks (at least through tier 2) and it's looking pretty good.

 

[ECMO3]

Although optimizers are a valid subset of players, I think they're a pretty small minority. Given the overwhelmingly positive reaction to monks, I don't see nerfing them because of fears that wizards or sorcerers will take a 2 level dip. I also don't think it would be that great. Yes, they can take the dodge action plus an unarmed strike bonus action at level 1 (so 6.5 average damage on a hit); that doesn't seem gamebreaking. A two level dip would allow a wizard, say, to take dodge/disengage as a bonus action twice before running out of discipline points; again, that doesn't seem gamebreaking.

Dodge (plus disengage) as a bonus action is far more powerful than just disengage as a bonus action. Like 5 times as powerful.

Keep in mind that ki recharge on a short rest AND they recharge when they roll initiative once a day. So it is not twice a day, it is twice per short rest plus 4 more times a day.

The point that you can dodge and attack resource free all the way from level 1-20 is true but not that great.

For a caster it isn't, but for a martial that can stun someone with their one bonus action attack it is huge.

If you are doing it resource free, all you are getting is dodge plus one unarmed strike, even at level 20 (average 11.5 damage at level 20). Which I think we can agree is not exactly terrifying.

As compared to another martial that can only dodge resource free and not attack at all.

A Monk's power is not now and never was in the damage they can do in a single round and control beats damage every day. At early levels, before they have a lot of ki they, this is a big buff. At later levels when they can spend ki at will it plays into the strengths extremely well.

We play tested this and it was WAY over the top for a martial. Not just a little bit, a lot, especially when you consider unarmed strikes can grapple/shove and this is now a save not a check and thereby automatically failed when stunned.

To illusrate how big the difference is - A 6th level dex 16, con 14, wis 18, AC17 Monk with a +1 spear and a 6th level AC20 fighter with a longsword+1 and dueling both go up against a Vrock:

The Monk is going to start using unarmed strike as a bonus action and try to stun. If he does stun, he uses extra attack for grapple and shove immediately (automatic success if he hits with advantage due to stunned condition). If he misses on the bonus action attack or misses on the stun he will dodge. Once grappled and prone he just wails on the prone grappled Vrock with extra attack and martial arts until it is dead, (still using stun once a turn if he hits on his bonus action while he has ki).

The fighter will use his +1 longsword with extra attack, dueling and a 20 strength and use action surge the first round.

This is one-v-one and is a "deadly" encounter for a 6th level character. The difference between these two is huge - on average that Monk will lose 44hps putting down the Vrock. The sword and board fighter will lose 80hps on average (assumes he has someone heal him mid battle).

This did not consider either the Vrock's screech or the poison cloud and assumed both Pcs won initiative. If I considered these it likely means death for both PCs if you consider these other abilities, but with good (lucky) saves here the Monk wins this fight more often than not and the fighter almost never does, even with good saves.

This is using baseline classes without considering any sort of optimization you could bring to improve this.

Stunning strike got nerfed to one attempt/turn in the UA, which I think was needed.

Stunning strike now does extra force damage on a successful save, which is a pretty big boost.

The extra damage aside it is still not a nerf at all until very high level when you can spam stunning strike without running out of ki.

When combined with the new way the bonus action works, this is actually ideal while ki is limited and when combined with the bonus action it is STRONGER than it was. You make your bonus action attack first and then choose your action knowing the results of the bonus. If you don't stun the bad guy you don't take the attack action (and you still do the extra force damage if you tried SS).

This is perfect for rationing resources and hit points. If you don't hit at all you don't use any ki and can dodge. If you hit and use stunning strike and fail to stun you still get the extra damage and can still dodge. If you hit and stun you can go nova unleashing your full compliment of attacks.

Also there is a DM rules question in play in here. It is not clear RAW if you have to fully resolve the unarmed strike before the stunning strike. Stunning strike only says you have to "hit". If the DM lets you resolve the successful unarmed attack after stunning strike this becomes even more powerful, because you hit with your bonus action and if you stun then you can choose to grapple instead of doing damage. Then you automatically succeed on this grapple as he automatically fails strength and dex saves due to the stun. You can then use your extra attack to prone him (again automatic success on a hit with advantage). Now even when the stun wears off the enemy is grappled and prone, he is attacking you with disadvantage even when you are not dodging. You can drag him into a fire or something using only your movement (which is high because you are a Monk). This is on one ki with a failed save and even if the save is successful you still did extra damage and are dodging.

I very much disagree that monks are currently fine! Player consensus on the monk class has been very clear since 2014.

Player consensus is flawed. Post-tashas, Monks are weak (but still viable) in tier 2, I will agree with that and it is where the core of the game is played so it probably has undue influence. They are not weak in other tiers compared to other non-casters and they are the most powerful non-caster at high levels (14+) by quite a bit.

Also this started because you asked what I don't like about the new Monk and these are the things I don't like. I prefered the 5E Tasha's version of the Monk and I have played that Monk to 20th level.

 

[tetrasodium]

Dodge (plus disengage) as a bonus action is far more powerful than just disengage as a bonus action. Like 5 times as powerful.

Keep in mind that ki recharge on a short rest AND they recharge when they roll initiative once a day. So it is not twice a day, it is twice per short rest plus 4 more times a day.




For a caster it isn't, but for a martial that can stun someone with their one bonus action attack it is huge.



As compared to another martial that can only dodge resource free and not attack at all.

A Monk's power is not now and never was in the damage they can do in a single round and control beats damage every day. At early levels, before they have a lot of ki they, this is a big buff. At later levels when they can spend ki at will it plays into the strengths extremely well.

We play tested this and it was WAY over the top for a martial. Not just a little bit, a lot, especially when you consider unarmed strikes can grapple/shove and this is now a save not a check and thereby automatically failed when stunned.

To illusrate how big the difference is - A 6th level dex 16, con 14, wis 18, AC17 Monk with a +1 spear and a 6th level AC20 fighter with a longsword+1 and dueling both go up against a Vrock:

The Monk is going to start using unarmed strike as a bonus action and try to stun. If he does stun, he uses extra attack for grapple and shove immediately (automatic success if he hits with advantage due to stunned condition). If he misses on the bonus action attack or misses on the stun he will dodge. Once grappled and prone he just wails on the prone grappled Vrock with extra attack and martial arts until it is dead, (still using stun once a turn if he hits on his bonus action while he has ki).

The fighter will use his +1 longsword with extra attack, dueling and a 20 strength and use action surge the first round.

This is one-v-one and is a "deadly" encounter for a 6th level character. The difference between these two is huge - on average that Monk will lose 44hps putting down the Vrock. The sword and board fighter will lose 80hps on average (assumes he has someone heal him mid battle).

This did not consider either the Vrock's screech or the poison cloud and assumed both Pcs won initiative. If I considered these it likely means death for both PCs if you consider these other abilities, but with good (lucky) saves here the Monk wins this fight more often than not and the fighter almost never does, even with good saves.

This is using baseline classes without considering any sort of optimization you could bring to improve this.




Stunning strike now does extra force damage on a successful save, which is a pretty big boost.

The extra damage aside it is still not a nerf at all until very high level when you can spam stunning strike without running out of ki.

When combined with the new way the bonus action works, this is actually ideal while ki is limited and when combined with the bonus action it is STRONGER than it was. You make your bonus action attack first and then choose your action knowing the results of the bonus. If you don't stun the bad guy you don't take the attack action (and you still do the extra force damage if you tried SS).

This is perfect for rationing resources and hit points. If you don't hit at all you don't use any ki and can dodge. If you hit and use stunning strike and fail to stun you still get the extra damage and can still dodge. If you hit and stun you can go nova unleashing your full compliment of attacks.

Also there is a DM rules question in play in here. It is not clear RAW if you have to fully resolve the unarmed strike before the stunning strike. Stunning strike only says you have to "hit". If the DM lets you resolve the successful unarmed attack after stunning strike this becomes even more powerful, because you hit with your bonus action and if you stun then you can choose to grapple instead of doing damage. Then you automatically succeed on this grapple as he automatically fails strength and dex saves due to the stun. You can then use your extra attack to prone him (again automatic success on a hit with advantage). Now even when the stun wears off the enemy is grappled and prone, he is attacking you with disadvantage even when you are not dodging. You can drag him into a fire or something using only your movement (which is high because you are a Monk). This is on one ki with a failed save and even if the save is successful you still did extra damage and are dodging.




Player consensus is wrong. Post-tashas, Monks are weak in tier 2, not in other tiers compared to other non-casters and they are the most powerful non-caster at high levels by quite a bit.

All good reasons why if 2024 monk is still recover all on short rest it would be the first base class I've flatly banned at chargen.

 

[ECMO3]

I've played dodgy monks before and one thing to note from that experience is that if you can dodge on the first round or 2 of an encounter you probably won't need to worry about dodging on the later rounds of most combats.

This is why it plays so well with only a 2-level dip and the new metabolism feature.

You are talking about 1-2 ki per fight to dodge+disengage and do your spell as an action. So you can do this at will.

The point about Blade Ward is a good one, but on a Wizard or Sorcerer you are giving up shield for that.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Hard disagree. For me, anyway. YVMV. I make extensive use of the ignore feature, and it prunes threads nicely. I can tell from the responses that most of what I am missing is just the same point being belaboured, which is fine, but does not require my active participation.

My personal rule for that feature is: is my interaction with this poster making me feel better or worse? And is it making the forum better or worse? If I'm making the forum worse, I probably should step back, and since I don't always have the self-control to do that on my own, the ignore feature is my friend. Also, I have a writing style that can come off as condescending. It is not intentional, and I swear I try to avoid it, but I know it can rub some folks the wrong way. So the ignore feature is their friend, too.

Those with better discipline than me likely don't need it as much.

My satisfaction with the site has gone up a lot when I decided arguing and stress is ok in small doses.

Let’s just say I feel a little guilty but happier and when I am missing a post I know it is worth the peace.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is why it plays so well with only a 2-level dip and the new metabolism feature.

That was my point.

You are talking about 1-2 ki per fight to dodge+disengage and do your spell as an action. So you can do this at will.

The point about Blade Ward is a good one, but on a Wizard or Sorcerer you are giving up shield for that.

The question isn't if bonus action dodge/disengage/dash? is good. The question is how good is it compared to other investments. Compared to those other options it seems solid but at best a side grade. Maybe a case can be made for it if starting a character at level 20 as being one of the best options, but for a level 1-10 campaign... it's a really tough sell. That loss of a spell level and slots really hurts at those levels. 1 level of cleric adds a ton to survivability, while keeping your slots and not putting your spell levels back as much. To me that makes the cleric dip the clear winner.

 

[James Gasik]

I think it comes down to your play style and how much pressure your arcane casters typically endure in your games. If you're constantly under pressure, then yeah, I can see Monk being good, especially with the speed bonus and being able to disengage as a bonus action without burning a spell slot on Expeditious Retreat (or choosing to be a Goblin for Nimble Escape). If you can outrun the melee, who needs to Dodge?

On the other hand, if you aren't often pressured by foes, by staying a good distance from them, using control spells or having melee friends to slow down their progress, you're probably far better off with more spell slots and the occasional Shield spell if problems come up.

The gripping hand, of course, is that there are a lot of useful bonus action spells (and/or spells that use your bonus action) as well, and if you're bonus action dodging all the time, you're not going to be able to use those- I'm currently playing a Wizard whose bonus action is often consumed by a subclass feature and that's forced me to pass on some spells that are otherwise pretty good.

I don't expect to see a lot of multiclassed Monk/Arcane casters- while it is a good option, it's 1) not the Monk's fault, and 2) there are alternatives that are equally good (including 2 more levels of Wizard, IMO).

Only if Monk 2/whatever was the only good option would it be busted. Like say, the Hexblade dip for Charisma classes.

 

[Clint_L]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing it as a particularly concerning multi-class option. It doesn't seem much different from some other good dips. Basically, we are talking about potentially being able to use a bonus action to dodge/disengage twice per combat, at the cost of two levels in the main class, or two levels of fighter, or all the other interesting options. I could see some builds going for it, especially if a player has a particular concept and mostly plays in very high level games that are focused on combat with extreme optimization, but what percentage of games are we talking about, here? Way under 1%, from all the numbers we've been given. It's not really a pressing concern, IMO.

The pressing concern is making monks more fun to play for folks who like playing monks, at the levels where most games actually happen. These changes deliver on that in spades. I've been play testing them, and as I posted above, my main concern is that the deflect attack feature is awfully strong for its cost of just a reaction, and probably makes monk a bit too tanky.

We've decided to take the current campaign all the way to 20 when the Vecna adventure comes out, and I am going to continue to main monk all the way, play testing the UA rules, so we'll see how it plays at the highest level. It does indeed look very strong at those top levels, especially between Superior Defence at level 18 at the new capstone (+4 to dex and wisdom).

But right now, monk is SO FUN. It finally delivers on the fantasy of all those martial arts movies.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The monk isn't going to go from the UA into the PHB without a balance pass. I don't think it needs a crowd of commoners with pitchforks and torches.