D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[UngeheuerLich]

To be fair - it's hard to get cheaper than "free". I'm not supposed to have to pay for passage.

But, yeah, that sort of thinking get's right under my skin. "Oh, well, there's these nice loopholes in the description where I can insert monkey's paws" is not conducive to getting players to try anything other than spells.

Again, I fail to really understand why DM's seem incapable of just saying, "Ok."

Yes. Bad DM's guide?

I don't get why we need such features to make the DM say yes.

It implies they should say no otherwise.

 

[Hussar]

Yes. Bad DM's guide?

I don't get why we need such features to make the DM say yes.

It implies they shouls say no otherwise.

For me, it's the way I was taught to play D&D. In AD&D and whatnot, the advice was always to screw over the players every chance you got. Gotcha's all the way down. And, frequently, the advice was to never say yes because the players are only there to cheat their way to a free lunch. If they wanted something, they had to earn it. Never trust the players because the players are only there to win.

That's what DMing advice looked like for a VERY long time. It's taken me years to break that habit. I still find myself defaulting to "no" when players ask me stuff. Look at all the drama over the idea that you simply skip over minor scenes in the 4e DMG. Or the idea of "yes and". Heck, even in 3e, there was all sorts of push back against saying yes.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

For me, it's the way I was taught to play D&D. In AD&D and whatnot, the advice was always to screw over the players every chance you got. Gotcha's all the way down. And, frequently, the advice was to never say yes because the players are only there to cheat their way to a free lunch. If they wanted something, they had to earn it. Never trust the players because the players are only there to win.

That's what DMing advice looked like for a VERY long time. It's taken me years to break that habit. I still find myself defaulting to "no" when players ask me stuff. Look at all the drama over the idea that you simply skip over minor scenes in the 4e DMG. Or the idea of "yes and". Heck, even in 3e, there was all sorts of push back against saying yes.

I actually do want to skip minor scenes and hope my players try something. I really try to default to yes.

I have one player who is used to a screw over DM which does slow the game down a lot sometimes. Especially when I say no, because there are reasons it can't work. Then he tries again and again. Even though I say: "yes, it is very suspicious that you can't make it work..."

 

[Cadence]

To be fair - it's hard to get cheaper than "free". I'm not supposed to have to pay for passage.

But, yeah, that sort of thinking get's right under my skin. "Oh, well, there's these nice loopholes in the description where I can insert monkey's paws" is not conducive to getting players to try anything other than spells.

Again, I fail to really understand why DM's seem incapable of just saying, "Ok."

I think most of the people replying on here agreed that there are lots of cases where they would just say yes, but there are also some cases where they would say the rule doesn't make sense. (Of course, being here, as a group we also then immediately start sounding like we are on a yes or no side without any of the qualifications or nuance).

As to why some folks might say no sometimes, here are some examples that I think should work for Sailor Background by RAW if the DM never throws in complications.

• When Chewie and Han are cornered and Boba Fett has them outgunned, all Chewie has to do is to start bargaining for passage on Fett's ship to Kashyyk for he and Han (because of course the Falcon is down for repairs).
  
  
• If Prince Humperdinck wants to capture the Dread Pirate Roberts, all he has to do is grab one of his sailors, row out to the Revenge, and when Wesley/Roberts gets ready to have him walk the plank the sailor bargains for passage for he and the prince back to Florin (where the entire fleet is just a bit off and ready to surround them).
  
  
• After Barbossa has Jack and Elizabeth walk the plank, Jack just needs to turn around in the water, invoke "Sailor Background" instead of "Parlay", and he and Swann can be ferried around to where-ever they were originally trying to get. ("Sailor Background is more of a rule than a guideline.")
  
  
• Percy and friends need Charon to ferry them across, but they lost their obols. No need to panic, turns out Grover actually has Sailor background! All they need to do is polish the floorboards on the trip across.
  
  
• The Brandywine barge man has heard all his life about the elven ships to the west. How could he ever get on one. And then he realizes, he can just bargain for passage!

Would those all get an unequivocal yes from you with no monkey's paws or loophole looking?

There are also some spells that many DMs would also say don't make sense in some cases by RAW and they would edit the rules in those cases to be either be more permissive or more restrictive. (But they wouldn't do anything to change them the vast majority of the time). I wonder if it happens less with spells because "it's magic" is a nice band-aid to make things just work. I wonder if "ghost ship crewmember" or "fairy kings burglar" or "aura of heroism" backgrounds would generally be allowed to work in more cases than "sailor" and "criminal" and "hero of the people" backgrounds.

 

[Oofta]

I think most of the people replying on here agreed that there are lots of cases where they would just say yes, but there are also some cases where they would say the rule doesn't make sense. (Of course, being here, as a group we also then immediately start sounding like we are on a yes or no side without any of the qualifications or nuance).

As to why some folks might say no sometimes, here are some examples that I think should work for Sailor Background by RAW if the DM never throws in complications.

• When Chewie and Han are cornered and Boba Fett has them outgunned, all Chewie has to do is to start bargaining for passage on Fett's ship to Kashyyk for he and Han (because of course the Falcon is down for repairs).
  
  
• If Prince Humperdinck wants to capture the Dread Pirate Roberts, all he has to do is grab one of his sailors, row out to the Revenge, and when Wesley/Roberts gets ready to have him walk the plank the sailor bargains for passage for he and the prince back to Florin (where the entire fleet is just a bit off and ready to surround them).
  
  
• After Barbossa has Jack and Elizabeth walk the plank, Jack just needs to turn around in the water, invoke "Sailor Background" instead of "Parlay", and he and Swann can be ferried around to where-ever they were originally trying to get. ("Sailor Background is more of a rule than a guideline.")
  
  
• Percy and friends need Charon to ferry them across, but they lost their obols. No need to panic, turns out Grover actually has Sailor background! All they need to do is polish the floorboards on the trip across.
  
  
• The Brandywine barge man has heard all his life about the elven ships to the west. How could he ever get on one. And then he realizes, he can just bargain for passage!

Would those all get an unequivocal yes from you with no monkey's paws or loophole looking?

There are also some spells that many DMs would also say don't make sense in some cases by RAW and they would edit the rules in those cases to be either be more permissive or more restrictive. (But they wouldn't do anything to change them the vast majority of the time). I wonder if it happens less with spells because "it's magic" is a nice band-aid to make things just work. I wonder if "ghost ship crewmember" or "fairy kings burglar" or "aura of heroism" backgrounds would generally be allowed to work in more cases than "sailor" and "criminal" and "hero of the people" backgrounds.

For what it's worth, in my campaign magic is rarely a get out of jail free card either. Meanwhile even though background features as written rarely work, I grant other far more frequently used benefits.

 

[Hussar]

Would those all get a yes from you with no Monkey's paws?

These are ridiculous examples and no player would ever actually try any of this. I mean, it's easy to make ludicrous strawman examples. If you actually want to discuss what actually happens at tables, I'm perfectly willing. Otherwise, this is just wasting my time and yours.

Amusing though.

 

[Cadence]

These are ridiculous examples and no player would ever actually try any of this. I mean, it's easy to make ludicrous strawman examples. If you actually want to discuss what actually happens at tables, I'm perfectly willing. Otherwise, this is just wasting my time and yours.

Amusing though.

I'm virtually certain there exist players that would. There was a player in one group that grabbed for everything the rules allowed and always power gamed. I think that, combined with the power imbalance in the choices allowed, put me in a bad enough mood that if the DM had been the kind who said they would do it all by RAW that I would take it as a challenge and seen how far out I could go, even if it wouldn't particularly have made me happy about it. I would try to grapple the gaseous formed, save things from fireball by picking them up, and get passage to short-cut being captured. (Instead I just don't game with that player anymore).

In any event, I'm now good with dropping it since there is a place you would draw the line (even if you can't imagine it coming up in play).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I

I'm virtually certain there exist players that would. There was a player in one group that grabbed for everything the rules allowed and always power gamed. I think that, combined with the power imbalance in the choices allowed, put me in a bad enough mood that if the DM had been the kind who said they would do it all by RAW that I would take it as a challenge and seen how far out I could go, even if it wouldn't particularly have made me happy about it. I would try to grapple the gaseous formed, save things from fireball by picking them up, and get passage to short-cut being captured. (Instead I just don't game with that player anymore).

In any event, I'm now good with dropping it since there is a place you would draw the line (even if you can't imagine it coming up in play).

Have played with that one player. It made me stop playing 3e or DMing it. Or any other game with him.

He tried to make cantrips work as high level spells and expoit anything not explicitly forbidden. Used any freedom in character building to find the most exploitable combinations and tried to remedy any disadvantage of the build with cheap tricks.
(I can just use a hood, so that I am protected from sund and noone recognizes that I am a drow...).

As DM he was very adversary too. Always built NPCs to not only exploit character's weaknesses, but to overpower them in their fields of experience. So anyone being worse at that field could just not try at all...

 

[Warpiglet-7]

No matter the rules, the game needs a reasonable DM.

No matter the rules, players need to accept it when the DM makes a reasonable decision.

A reasonable DM will normally follow shared rules unless they see a good reason to deviate for a real game world reason.

I have played with DMs who have said “no” as a self protective reaction when I felt it was wrong. I have played with players who have badgered the DM to bend and rule something absurd.

If people are not reasonable (for the most part) or play nice in the sandbox (either side of the screen) it’s going to suck. And of course people being people, it’s usually going to be ok with little bits of suck mixed in.

Or you encounter a table to run from…as it consistently sucks. Or you might find a player to avoid…here and there.

 

[SkidAce]

... Talking to random NPC who DOES NOT MATTER is pointless...

Your post is well written and feel I understand your point.

My only question is how do you know which NPCs don't matter?


I can give a concrete example from our point of view.

Characters needed to get to some desert ruins (long journey).
Most of the trip would be by river.
There were five ships available.
Three were generic NPCs.
One was a merchant lord that wanted in on the adventure, for money, profit, and influence.
The last one was a spy for the ruling class of wizards in the area (wanted to steal everything).


They talked to them and unknowingly chose the spy.

Was a great adventure (details too long for this example.