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Alright. I still question how you're sure they represent most groups. But I think we're at an 'agree to disagree' point. Thanks for taking the time to explain your point, though. I do appreciate it.
D&D (2024) Do you see Fighter players at your own table?
- Thread starter Yaarel
- Start date
And I will add that this rule is base on the assumption that the players and the DM trust each other and will collaborate to create an epic adventure.
Which should be the only reason you're playing in the first place. It is bizarre to even suggest anyone should be playing under any other pretext
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
And yet,
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Most players play spellcasters.
We know from DnDBeyond statistics (2019 "Top Classes by Tier"), about 60.5% of players around level 8 are playing spellcasters.
When including Monk, about 67.3% are playing the magical classes.
The Fighter, the Rogue, and the Barbarian offer some subclasses to play a nonmagical character concept. But even these classes offer magical subclasses as well.
D&D is a game about magic.
The Fighter class offers both nonmagical subclasses and magical subclasses. (DnD published the statistics in 2020, "Top 10 Fighter Subclasses", after Xanathars subclasses but before Tashas. There was a 2019 UA for the Rune Knight that gained some traction before it officially came out in Tashas. I assume the nonmagic to magic ratio is roughly comparable today.) When we look at the Fighter, we know the subclasses that players are choosing.
PLAYERS OF NONMAGIC SUBCLASSES: 76.5%
38.1% Champion (Players Handbook)
17.4% Battlemaster (Players Handbook)
10.1% Gunslinger (DnDBeyond for Critical Role)
6.6% Samurai (Xanathars)
3.2% Cavalier (Xanathars)
1.1% Purple Dragon Knight "Banneret" (Sword Coast)
PLAYERS OF MAGIC SUBCLASSES: 23.5%
13.5% Eldritch Knight (Players Handbook)
6.0% Arcane Archer (Xanathars)
2.9% Rune Knight (UA before Tashas)
1.1% Echo Knight (Wildemount)
Over 23% of players are simply using the Fighter as one of the magical classes.
The possibility of multiclassing and feats allow more magical characters concepts.
Probably gamers who play since 1e, 2e, and 3e, think of these subclasses as if the Fighter "plus" magic. Rather than, the Fighter "is" magic. But many players are thinking, these are magical characters for a magical game.
Moreover, these distinctions between "nonmagic" and "magic" blur at the high tiers. During levels 13 thru 20, even the attempted "nonmagical" Fighters necessarily resembles magical superheroes and mythic warriors, to stay balanced with combat challenges at these high tiers.
There is a situation where many players lack the concept of a strictly nonmagical Fighter as part of their experience of D&D.
For the sake of the balance of the game at the highest tiers, designers need to lean into the themes of "Martial magic". Fighter characters do things that are self-evidently impossible in reallife.
We know from DnDBeyond statistics (2019 "Top Classes by Tier"), about 60.5% of players around level 8 are playing spellcasters.
When including Monk, about 67.3% are playing the magical classes.
The Fighter, the Rogue, and the Barbarian offer some subclasses to play a nonmagical character concept. But even these classes offer magical subclasses as well.
D&D is a game about magic.
The Fighter class offers both nonmagical subclasses and magical subclasses. (DnD published the statistics in 2020, "Top 10 Fighter Subclasses", after Xanathars subclasses but before Tashas. There was a 2019 UA for the Rune Knight that gained some traction before it officially came out in Tashas. I assume the nonmagic to magic ratio is roughly comparable today.) When we look at the Fighter, we know the subclasses that players are choosing.
PLAYERS OF NONMAGIC SUBCLASSES: 76.5%
38.1% Champion (Players Handbook)
17.4% Battlemaster (Players Handbook)
10.1% Gunslinger (DnDBeyond for Critical Role)
6.6% Samurai (Xanathars)
3.2% Cavalier (Xanathars)
1.1% Purple Dragon Knight "Banneret" (Sword Coast)
PLAYERS OF MAGIC SUBCLASSES: 23.5%
13.5% Eldritch Knight (Players Handbook)
6.0% Arcane Archer (Xanathars)
2.9% Rune Knight (UA before Tashas)
1.1% Echo Knight (Wildemount)
Over 23% of players are simply using the Fighter as one of the magical classes.
The possibility of multiclassing and feats allow more magical characters concepts.
Probably gamers who play since 1e, 2e, and 3e, think of these subclasses as if the Fighter "plus" magic. Rather than, the Fighter "is" magic. But many players are thinking, these are magical characters for a magical game.
Moreover, these distinctions between "nonmagic" and "magic" blur at the high tiers. During levels 13 thru 20, even the attempted "nonmagical" Fighters necessarily resembles magical superheroes and mythic warriors, to stay balanced with combat challenges at these high tiers.
There is a situation where many players lack the concept of a strictly nonmagical Fighter as part of their experience of D&D.
For the sake of the balance of the game at the highest tiers, designers need to lean into the themes of "Martial magic". Fighter characters do things that are self-evidently impossible in reallife.
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If only the rules were designed towards that end. Take long and short rests as an example, they are worded mechanically as if the primary goal was to ensure that players could stop and rest anywhere any time until the gm invokes fiat to just declare the rest impossible or trolls their players into giving up on the rest.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Im not even sure what a "nonmagical setting" for D&D would look like.
I suppose it must be low level. Use tiers 1 thru 4, 5 thru 8, maybe 9 thru 12.
It would only allow Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian, and even then only certain subclasses.
It would only have the Human as a playable species. Maybe the Orc is ok. Even the Halfling might be too magical.
If we're looking at anecdotal experience there's almost always someone who want to play a fighter and occasionally a couple of people. Battlemasters are popular. Rogues are very popular.
The most common class I see the ranger. Paladins are also fairly common.
What I don't see a lot of are wizards or sorcerers. My friends prefer warlocks.
Clerics still come across as an obligatory class that someone feels forced to play unless someone else makes a druid (rarely see druids) or a healing bard as an alternative (often me).
Me and one other friend are the only two ppl I ever see play monks.
Overall, basic fighters and rogues are easily more popular in the games I play than full spell casters, but warrior classes with magical support of their own are the most popular.
The most common class I see the ranger. Paladins are also fairly common.
What I don't see a lot of are wizards or sorcerers. My friends prefer warlocks.
Clerics still come across as an obligatory class that someone feels forced to play unless someone else makes a druid (rarely see druids) or a healing bard as an alternative (often me).
Me and one other friend are the only two ppl I ever see play monks.
Overall, basic fighters and rogues are easily more popular in the games I play than full spell casters, but warrior classes with magical support of their own are the most popular.
When we want to play martial characters we do players can only be fighters rogue monk ranger barbarian paliden. Sometimes we include artificer. Normally we don’t allow the eldritch knight or arcane trickster but sometimes we have.
We then just don’t use enemies that cast higher then 5th level spells and don’t put creatures immune to no magic damage in
I have been told the bard from middle earth book is spelless and still work but we have not tried it
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