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5E Do you think the monk has too few ki points? And my proposal.

machineelf

Explorer
I was discussing the monk with a player in my group. We both agreed that the monk gets too few ki points and is one of the weaker classes for that reason. Monks get 1 ki per level, so at third level the monk has 3 ki points. With 3 ki points at that level, the monk can do a couple of things in a fight and then is left with nothing but a simple melee attack until the next short rest. At 10th level, with only 10 ki points, again the monk can't last long before he burns through all those ki points, and is left fairly weak from then. Weaker than a 10th level should be in my opinion.

Now, I don't think the monk is badly unbalanced; just a bit unbalanced. And I think that a slight nudge would make a big difference. My feeling is that increasing a monk's ki points by 50%, round up, would be in that "just right" zone. So at third level, the monk would have 5 ki points instead of 3. Not a big increase, but more reasonable to my mind. And by 10th level, the monk would have 15 ki points. Again, more reasonable.

Thoughts?
 

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JValeur

Explorer
The monk is plenty, plenty strong at higher levels. Trust me. They regain the points at a short rest, for crying out loud. But, at lower levels, it can feel a bit underwhelming. A flatter curve is a better solution - like starting at 5 points and then not gaining any the last five levels, or something like that.
 

I don't know what build your player has or what role he has in the party. In general the monk is about speed, hit and run tactics and using your imagination with acrobatics. Monks with the right race are already the fastest class, have the most attacks & nearly unkillable at higher levels. Why should they be getting more Ki points? Improving gameplay lies in thinking about what other skills and profiencies the character has at thier disposal. DM's should punish monks who rely soley on Ki not reward them.
 

machineelf

Explorer
The monk is plenty, plenty strong at higher levels. Trust me. They regain the points at a short rest, for crying out loud. But, at lower levels, it can feel a bit underwhelming. A flatter curve is a better solution - like starting at 5 points and then not gaining any the last five levels, or something like that.
I agree that at higher levels, particularly above 10, the monk has plenty of ki by then. I like your suggestion that a flatter curve might be better. Maybe from levels 2 - 8 there could be a slight increase that begins to merge back to 1 per level beyond that.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Monks have more ki points than a Paladin with spell points would have if you divided those spell points by 3 for the standard rest metric. The monk is basically a half-caster, just without much in the way of high level "spells".

At low levels, monks are solid damage dealers. Flurry of blows lines up rather well with Action Surge. At higher levels, their damage doesn't keep scaling, but they then have the Ki points to flurry every round and drop quite a few stunning fist attempts.

If you want a monk that has more ki points, you'd need to scale back their combat ability. Look at the Soul Knife and Immortal Mystics; they have 1 attack (plus bonus actions) and a ton of power points, but their power points is where all their oomph comes from.
 

machineelf

Explorer
I don't know what build your player has or what role he has in the party. In general the monk is about speed, hit and run tactics and using your imagination with acrobatics. Monks with the right race are already the fastest class, have the most attacks & nearly unkillable at higher levels. Why should they be getting more Ki points? Improving gameplay lies in thinking about what other skills and profiencies the character has at thier disposal. DM's should punish monks who rely soley on Ki not reward them.
Have you actually played a monk yourself? I ask because in my experience, at low levels, a monk burns through ki in half of medium-length a fight, or if you're conservative with ki, they will last one fight. Monks don't rely on ki only, of course, but ki is a big part of what drives the monk's abilities. Without ki, monks are very limited, even with their few abilities that don't require ki.

You don't think that at 4th level having only four ki is a little on the ridiculous side? If a monk uses a ki point to do patient doge, and then uses a ki point to do flurry of blows, then the monk is out of ki after two rounds. If the monk is more conservative, he may be out of ki after four rounds. And that's it until the next short rest.

Perhaps the difference in opinion comes down to how often the DM allows short rests, which will of course make a huge difference. But in our game we don't have short rests until after three or four fights in a big dungeon, for example. So, for most of that time, the monk is just plain out of ki. My proposal isn't a big bump, just a slight one, like I said. But I think it would balance things much better, and the monk would definitely not be overpowered by having 6 ki instead of 4 at 4th level.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Monks don't rely on ki only, of course, but ki is a big part of what drives the monk's abilities. Without ki, monks are very limited, even with their few abilities that don't require ki.
Monks without ki have just as much as paladins or rangers without spells, in my opinion.

secondhander;7157740You don't think that at 4th level having only four ki is a little on the ridiculous side? If a monk uses a ki point to do patient doge said:
A 4th level Paladin only has 3 1st level spells all day. The monk has 4 ki per short rest. The DMG says characters should probably be getting 2 short rests per long rest. With 6 "standard" combat encounters, they could spend 2 ki per encounter. "Standard" encounters are usually over pretty fast, so they could probably spend a ki a round for 2 rounds and then clean up without. Paladins don't get to smite every round.

secondhander;7157740Perhaps the difference in opinion comes down to how often the DM allows short rests said:
Yes, if the monk isn't getting 2 short rests per long rest, they're going to feel like they don't have enough Ki. This is why I want to convert everyone to short rests, or everyone to long rests.

As for the monk being overpowered by having 6 ki instead of 4 at 4th ... define overpowered and I'll give you some numbers.
 

machineelf

Explorer
Monks have more ki points than a Paladin with spell points would have if you divided those spell points by 3 for the standard rest metric. The monk is basically a half-caster, just without much in the way of high level "spells".
I think this is a little bit apples to oranges. A paladin also has lay on hands for a pool of healing that doesn't use spell points. They also have their auras. They also have channel divinity for special bonus abilities. When I play a paladin, I feel like I have a more balanced range of varying abilities, spells and spell points for divine smite just being one of those. I've played a paladin and had plenty that I could do without using spells at all.

But when I play a monk, I feel like ki is the driving factor of my abilities much more than a paladin's spell points.

Sure a monk can do a few things that don't require ki, but they are somewhat limited. Ki is leaned upon much more in the monk class than spell points are leaned on by the paladin, in my experience.
 

Saelorn

Hero
Monks are fine. It might help to think of them more as variant Fighters, rather than variant Wizards.

Ki is a lot like Action Surge, in that it lets you do more on some of your turns, except you get a lot more of it and it isn't quite as versatile.
 

Seramus

Adventurer
Level 1: 6 Ki
Level 2: 6 Ki
Level 3: 7 Ki
Level 4: 8 Ki
Level 5: 8 Ki
Level 6: 9 Ki
Level 7: 10 Ki
Level 8: 10 Ki
Level 9: 11 Ki
Level 10: 12 Ki
Level 11: 12 Ki
Level 12: 13 Ki
Level 13: 14 Ki
Level 14: 14 Ki
Level 15: 15 Ki
Level 16: 16 Ki
Level 17: 16 Ki
Level 18: 17 Ki
Level 19: 18 Ki
Level 20: 18 Ki
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
I think this is a little bit apples to oranges. A paladin also has lay on hands for a pool of healing that doesn't use spell points. They also have their auras. They also have channel divinity for special bonus abilities. When I play a paladin, I feel like I have a more balanced range of varying abilities, spells and spell points for divine smite just being one of those. I've played a paladin and had plenty that I could do without using spells at all.

But when I play a monk, I feel like ki is the driving factor of my abilities much more than a paladin's spell points.

Sure a monk can do a few things that don't require ki, but they are somewhat limited. Ki is leaned upon much more in the monk class than spell points are leaned on by the paladin, in my experience.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to clog up the thread with a big paladin vs monk chart.
 

I have played many a monk, and in 5e tabaxi monk with a druid to speed buff is out of control. Also an acroa monk avoids most melee damage as they can fly out of range. A monk can function as a variant fighter but can never truely replace a well honed tank. With a potential 3 attacks at level one and the ability to get in and out of range the monk can easily dispose of enemies up to level 4. Perhaps you should look at the challenge rating of your npc's.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Level 1: 6 Ki
Level 2: 6 Ki
Level 3: 7 Ki
This much ki at early levels would I think make the monk much too strong. If you feel this needs adjustment, I'd start slower
Level 1: --
Level 2: 3 Ki
Level 3: 4 Ki
Level 4: 5 Ki
Level 5: 5 Ki
Level 6: 6 Ki
etc

But if you like your version, give it a try and let us know :)
 

Monks are amazingly good when played well. Strong combination of Rogue and Fighter. I'd be wary of giving them more Ki, since you'll only regret it when they start stun-locking every monster in your combats.
 

Lost Soul

First Post
No. The monk has more than enough ki points, especially if you are gauging spells for the elemental monk. Spells are supposed to be long rest mechanics but monks get ki on short rest. Now take the sorcerer. That class really needs more spell points or the monk's short rest mechanic.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I played a shadow monk up to level 8, and while you can blow through ki pretty quickly, I think it's notable that at no point was I behind any other class. So in that case, I don't think they need a ki bump. I was all over the battlefield, and just that benefit alone allowed me to do things no other class could do. If I wanted to reliably deal out as much damage as a fighter, I'd be a fighter. That wasn't my role. And when I hit level 6 with shadowstep, it was huge.
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The Monk might be may favorite class in terms of design in 5e. I think they did it right.

There is only one issue with Ki, and it's not a lack of it. It's the short rest mechanic. Either you give them, or you don't. If you are allowing them, the ki is fine.

Think of it this way. If you have 5-6 encounters per long rest (assume those guidelines), then the monk is getting a short rest every two encounters to recharge. And recharges again on the long rest.

You still have to manage you ki, just like every other class has some resource management issues. But a monk that can use ki almost every attack, in almost every combat, is just way too powerful.

But, even at first level, if you're getting two short rests per long rest, you effectively are using 3 ki per long rest. Your effective ki is triple your ki.
The short rest thing you mention is why I let short rests be much shorter, so it's easier to narratively fit them into the scenario.
 

You don't think that at 4th level having only four ki is a little on the ridiculous side? If a monk uses a ki point to do patient doge, and then uses a ki point to do flurry of blows, then the monk is out of ki after two rounds.
Both Patient Dodge and Flurry of Blows require the use of your bonus action. You can't do them both. A 4th-level monk can't spend more than 1 ki point in a round unless they're using Deflect Missiles with their reaction (or casting spells through their subclass). At 5th they get Stunning Strike, and yes, that can dramatically increase their ki consumption. That means they have to be judicious, not that they need more ki.
 

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