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Does the TV scifi paradigm need to change?

ConnorSB said:
I agree with almost everything people have said. And I have a question:

What would you do if you had the job? I mean, assuming you had a modest budget, what would the "Sci-Fi show of today" look like? And what would you do to keep it on air?
A non stop action thriller with space ship dog fights and lasers blasting everywhere. You know a show where a loveable rogue, his alien sidekick, a young brash hero with a heart of gold and a rescued space princess fight the forces of a oppressive space dictatorship while learing to get along in their rusty old space freighter as they travel across the galaxy. I'd call it "Space Wars the series" or something like that.

How about taking the original scripts from Black Sheep Squadron and changing it into a space fighter action show. Change the names and places but leave the storylines in tact, sort of a re-imagining of a world war two action drama in space. Call it something like "Rogue Squadron the series".

Live action Jonny Quest in the style of the original (you know when they actually killed people). Deal with some of the more adult issues a boy and his mad scientist father would have to deal with, not to mention frog men getting the hell kicked out of them by a 12 year old boy, his dog and his super-spy protector. Would be called "Jonny Quest" (the series :D )

Genetically engineered flying primates who live on a skyscraper in Los Angeles and work for a large finacial firm. Each hyper intelligent ape will be of a different species led by the mighty Bill, the flying Silverback Gorrilla. The show will be called "Repo-monkeys".

Or how about the deftly entitled "Bubba Slapjaw and the Spaceknights" a show that needs no explination (It was a comic book I did for 9th grade art class, real high quality stuff).
 

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Ditto the armchair quarterbacking.

If I were a writer, I'd... oh, wait, I am, and I am, as it were. :)

But I don't plan on going into television until I've risen to such fame and fortune as a novelist that I can go into television with power. At least one reason we're all complaining so much is because writers in TV-land are low on the totem pole. JMS was able to do what he did with B5 because he was the dude in charge, in addition to being the writer (of many/most episodes, and the final-viewer on the ones he didn't write).
 

LightPhoenix said:
I think the whole "it's expensive" argument is rather weak myself. Otherwise there's no way SFC would be able to stay in business.

There's two problems I see.

One is advertising - Sci-Fi shows so often don't get the advertising that they need to draw in viewers. A lot of that is because I think the networks think that only the hardcore fans will watch a show, and won't be able to pick up any new viewers - something not entirely unsubstantiated, but certainly not close to true either.

The other is budgets. You know the primary reason JMS could keep B5 on the air? He was consistently under budget each year, something that most Sci-Fi shows to my knowledge don't do.

Given these two problems, of course money is going to be an issue. But I don't think it needs to be as big of one as it's made out to be.
I think Sci Fi channels new show budget for all of 2003 was around 135 million (about the same as the budget for the first Spiderman movie). The budget for the Taken Mini-series was around 40 million, Stargate runs around 1.5 million per episode (36 million for a 24 episode run). So there's more than half their total new show budget for the year, then you got all the other shows and movies and specials and the Galactica mini series and well you can see it just doesn't go all that far.

Here is a chart I found on a Firefly messageboard, don't know how reliable it is:

Genre Show Budgets
Enterprise (2001)
$5,000,000 (per episode) (Season 2-7)
$3,500,000 (per episode)
$12,000,000 (pilot episode)
Star Trek TNG (1987)
$2,500,000 (per episode) (season 3-7)
$1,500,000 (per episode)
Star Trek DS9 (1993)
$4,000,000 (per episode) (Season 4-7)
$2,000,000 (per episode)
Star Trek Voyager (1995)
$3,500,000 (per episode) (Season 4-7)
$2,200,000 (Per Episode)
Stargate SG1 (1996)
$1,400,000 (per episode)
The X-Files (1993)
$1,500,000 (per episode - Canada)
$2,500,000 (per episode - US)
$66,000,000 (movie)
Space: Above and Beyond (1995)
$5,000,000 (per episode)
Star Trek TOS (1966)
$100,000 (per episode)
Babylon Five (1994)
$750,000 (per episode)
$900,000 (per episode) (Season 4-5)
Battlestar Galactica (1978)
$750,000 (per episode)
The Outer Limits (1995)
$1,100,000 (per episode, 7th season)
Buffy (1997)
$2,300,000 (per episode, 5th season)
Angel (1999)
$2,000,000 (per episode)
Firefly (2002)
$2,000,000 (per episode)
$10,000,000 (pilot episode)
Farscape (1999)
$1,500,000 (per episode)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=3136
 

jdavis said:
I think Sci Fi channels new show budget for all of 2003 was around 135 million (about the same as the budget for the first Spiderman movie). The budget for the Taken Mini-series was around 40 million, Stargate runs around 1.5 million per episode (36 million for a 24 episode run). So there's more than half their total new show budget for the year, then you got all the other shows and movies and specials and the Galactica mini series and well you can see it just doesn't go all that far.

Now let's ask the question: Why is their budget $135M? How might one go about increasing it? Perhaps through the success of other sides of the business? Are they allowed to do that?

Reality is not a zero sum equation. It sounds to me like SFC has a few nice big wooden blocks and a lot of little ones, and has lined them all up on the floor and occasionally shuffles them around and sits on them. Meanwhile, we're sitting over here, shouting 'Build a house! Build a house! Make it reach up to the sky!' But they don't.

And before I forget: Is SFC capable of putting ads for shows on its own channel? Or does it have to pay money to some amorphous entity to do so? If so, WHY?

The more I read about it, the more I think the entertainment industry's gone soft in the head... anyone think the Japanese will save us?

Speaking of which: http://www.mutineersmoon.com - Hypersmurf, be happy. I don't know precisely what's going on with Honor Harrington, but you can always check http://www.baen.com and see if you can turn up anything (and if you can't, just download a couple dozen books the authors have chosen for dissemination and call it even).
 

s/LaSH said:
Speaking of which: http://www.mutineersmoon.com - Hypersmurf, be happy.

Well, to be honest, the Mutineer's Moon books are the Webers that grab me least of everything he's done.

Which isn't to say they're bad, in any respect... I'm just far more excited to hear the Honor rumour.

I'd love to see Bahzell brought to screen as well...

I don't know precisely what's going on with Honor Harrington, but you can always check http://www.baen.com and see if you can turn up anything (and if you can't, just download a couple dozen books the authors have chosen for dissemination and call it even).

Heh. I just posted eight links to Baen and the Free Library over in this thread...

The only information I could find Googlewise was that ADV Films was looking for investors, co-producers, etc for an Honor series in September 2002.

-Hyp.
 

s/LaSH said:
Now let's ask the question: Why is their budget $135M? How might one go about increasing it? Perhaps through the success of other sides of the business? Are they allowed to do that?

Reality is not a zero sum equation. It sounds to me like SFC has a few nice big wooden blocks and a lot of little ones, and has lined them all up on the floor and occasionally shuffles them around and sits on them. Meanwhile, we're sitting over here, shouting 'Build a house! Build a house! Make it reach up to the sky!' But they don't.

And before I forget: Is SFC capable of putting ads for shows on its own channel? Or does it have to pay money to some amorphous entity to do so? If so, WHY?

The more I read about it, the more I think the entertainment industry's gone soft in the head... anyone think the Japanese will save us?

Speaking of which: http://www.mutineersmoon.com - Hypersmurf, be happy. I don't know precisely what's going on with Honor Harrington, but you can always check http://www.baen.com and see if you can turn up anything (and if you can't, just download a couple dozen books the authors have chosen for dissemination and call it even).
Sci Fi's budget seems to increase every year it's just that they still seem to mar every year with one or two bonehead decisions. With the recent Universal/NBC merger you have to wonder if there may be a shake up comming at Sci Fi and if they may get the opportunity to do some more mainstream advertising. Originally the Battlestar Galactica project was a Fox tv project that was going to air on Sci Fi as reruns at a later date, wonder if they may be able to get some of that NBC clout behind a joint venture show now?

The Japanese have already saved Saturday morning cartoons so anything is possible.
 

Ranger REG said:
Honestly, I wasn't that too impressed with Firefly special effects, including the "robotic camera" view effect (how it pans and then makes a tight magnifying focus). But the story was good enough, especially the arc concerning the psychic girl.
The two that stood out in my mind were the movements of the ships in space (they felt like they were moving in a vaccuum somehow), and the incredibly cool horizontal flaming cyclone in Out of Gas. Some of the other effects -- the magnetotrain in Train Job, for instance -- were pretty obvious CGI, but other bits of effects were great.

Daniel
 

s/LaSH said:
Anybody ever hear of The Tribe? It was doing pretty well a few years back, I haven't really kept on top of it. It's a NZ-made show about a world where everyone out of their teens died of some weird disease, and as expected, things went to the dogs.
It had it's own programming track at Dragon*Con this past year, and they had the DVD compilation there. I should have picked it up, because it did look interesting, but I'll see if Netflix picks it up first. It certainly seemed popular, and had an interesting 'look and feel' to it.
 

jdavis said:
I think Sci Fi channels new show budget for all of 2003 was around 135 million (about the same as the budget for the first Spiderman movie). The budget for the Taken Mini-series was around 40 million, Stargate runs around 1.5 million per episode (36 million for a 24 episode run). So there's more than half their total new show budget for the year, then you got all the other shows and movies and specials and the Galactica mini series and well you can see it just doesn't go all that far.

Here is a chart I found on a Firefly messageboard, don't know how reliable it is:
It's moderately reliable. I remember JMS specifically discussing budget for B5 multiple times, and the numbers provided here are slightly lower for the average, but about correct. Individual episodes would widely diverge in cost, based on the requirements for set construction and CGI. B5 was the first show I know of that used the occasional 'virtual' set....meaning most of the room was CGI. B5 was very concise on what was to happen during the year, with the main story specifically planned from the start, which allowed them to better plan what they'd need (the same approach that Jackson used for LotR). And being syndicated doesn't mean there haven't been shows that go over budget, or that being a network show means that you can go over budget. In both cases, unless you're phenonemally successful, you end up having to cut costs later in the season to make up for it. Some B5 episodes were much more expensive than others, due to makeup or CGI requirements, for example. Star Trek used the 'Ship-in-a-bottle' episode idea (not the first to do it, of course, just the first I ever heard use a title for it): namely that you shoot an episode without using any new sets, to cut the costs and time requirements. Which, if done properly with a good story, can work very well.

Different factors affect costs, too. Location shooting is expensive, generally. Many shows are co-produced outside of the US, such as Highlander and Farscape, so that TV stations in places like France or Germany help defer the costs in return for getting first run shots at the show. Having multiple cameras, CGI or extensive makeup effects add up, as do needing new sets on regular basis.

Mind you, all of that can be irrelevant to why a show succeeds or fails. Politics can be huge. Stephen J. Cannell, Stephen Bochco, David Kelley, JMS and many other writer/producers have had very public feuds with their networks and distributors over their shows. Sometimes they win, and sometimes they lose. Remember when B5 was part of PTEN? JMS had plenty of feuds with WB's movie division, who was responsible for B5, not their TV division (and what a convulted web that was). In the case of TNT, JMS attempted to compromise on some issues, and ended up with some terrible episodes of an otherwise good series. The political and very public scuffle almost certainly led to the show's demise. JMS' subsequent battles over Jeremiah have led to his severing ties with that show after season 2.

When a show like NYPD Blue, the X-files, and Law and Order has problems with the networks who help make them, you can bet a show like B5 or the Invisible Man has much less chance of getting it's own way.

The only way really good shows get made, SF or no, is to fly under the radar of most TV execs until it becomes a certifiable hit...and even then, it's not only stronger, not invulnerable.

As for the ideas of mini-series versus regular series: they're different formats, and have different strengths and weaknesses. I"m not sure that I'd prefer one to the other. A good mini-series often leaves you wishing they had done more, for example (a lot of BBC productions can be like this, due to their short runs). A regular series can often flounder, with episodes that are clearly 'filler'. A mini-series often is more expensive than a regular series, as you're not deferring some costs over a long period.

If I had my druthers, I'd have both. :)
 

ConnorSB said:
What would you do if you had the job? I mean, assuming you had a modest budget, what would the "Sci-Fi show of today" look like? And what would you do to keep it on air?
I think that show would be a mini-series :) I think there are lots of good books out there that would make excellent shows but they would need to be done as mini-series because they involve changing circumstances. Almost all TV is done with the assumption that the basic circumstances will not change (and I can understand somewhat the idea behind this; it's easy for someone to start watching, say, Friends or ST: TNG in the middle season 4 and never be aware at all that has gone before).

The idea of a series that has a definate beginning, middle and end is very appealing to me. The idea of a series of series that share the same universe is also very appealing.

What would I create, if given a magic wand of money?

Batman. Doing Batman as a totally straight series concentrating on detective work, crime fighting, and the occassional supervillain would be great. One part action, part CSI, use over-arching plots and meta-plots like Law and Order.... You have a small cast of main characters with all these wonderful people on the sidelines; combine with normal types of crimes that Batman usualy deals with and once or twice a season have a two or three part major supervillain scene. Batman has, hands down, one of the best series of villains in comics, but they're like spice. Too many and the soup is inedible. You can do almost anything, juggling and weaving plotlines as needed: Batman on the trail of a serial arsonist; Tim Drake juggling his school and girlfriend and family duties with being Robin at night; Commissioner Gordon trying to keep the new Internal Affairs political hack off his back; a corrupt city council dealing with their new silent partner: The Penguin, who promises to bring much needed money into the city with his new waterfront gambling casino complex; Oracle overseeing everything from the Watchtower... It would actually be a fairly low budget series; most of your SFX cash would go into the occassional explosion and a few low-level Bat-Gadgets. CGI 90% of the mansion and Batcave sets and there you go. Once in a while, blow the big SFX scene with someone like Poison Ivy (the entire park comes to life and tries to kill Batman and Robin), or Clayface (do him like the animated series, with him being a shapeshifter).
 

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