Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

Stalker0

Legend
You mean the only source of magical knowledge she has, that as the viewer you have a frame of reference that tells you how bad it is that she doesn't? I mean, yes, she has reason to believe its not good, but has no idea of the relentlessly corrupting nature of it because she doesn't know anything about magic.
If only she knew about a group that studied magic, and has all sorts of good magical tomes about it....oh wait, she does.
 

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What every drug addict is told...you make amends. And if that is standing in front of them so they can rant to you about how nasty you were to them....so be it.

No. That's making it about you. If someone tells you they don't want to deal with you, you take them at your word and go away. Otherwise you've decided its more important what you do than what they want.
 

If only she knew about a group that studied magic, and has all sorts of good magical tomes about it....oh wait, she does.

She knows about Strange. There's nothing to suggest she knows more than that, and there's nothing that even tells you she knows how to contact him. Its not like she's one of the people he interacted with much during Infinity War. And lets not forget that she expects him to come by by himself at some point--which he doesn't do until much, much later.
 

Stalker0

Legend
No. That's making it about you. If someone tells you they don't want to deal with you, you take them at your word and go away. Otherwise you've decided its more important what you do than what they want.
There's a big difference between leaving in the moment, and never coming back even a few years later. Of course people are going to be super angry and have the "get out" moment right after the trauma. But some time later, you should at least try again. Or stay in the shadows, doing something in the background to try and make their lives better....something.

Btw, I have this beef with the Avengers as well after Avengers 2 (and its Baron Zemo that points it out). Considering what happened to Sokovia, did any of them help the country that was destroyed? (Especially Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, who share at least some responsibility, if not the majority).
 

There's a big difference between leaving in the moment, and never coming back even a few years later. Of course people are going to be super angry and have the "get out" moment right after the trauma. But some time later, you should at least try again. Or stay in the shadows, doing something in the background to try and make their lives better....something.

So, stalk them and reopen the trauma?

Still, no.

Btw, I have this beef with the Avengers as well after Avengers 2 (and its Baron Zemo that points it out). Considering what happened to Sokovia, did any of them help the country that was destroyed? (Especially Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, who share at least some responsibility, if not the majority).

Not parallel situations, I think.
 


It was meant to showcase my beef isn't just with "wanda" doing non-heroic things, aka I don't single her out, there are issues with other movies as well.

The difference is I think there's a big difference between someone struggling with trauma and guilt and what they do, and a whole group who knows they have further obligation.

Your whole premise about Wanda assumes a rational actor with a lot more knowledge about a situation than she has. I think that's very poor framing to approach it with.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Does anyone consider Hawkeye a villain in Avengers when he was mind controlled by Loki? And when he snapped out of it doing everything he could to set it right?

Why the double standard given to the Darkhold? We see Strange after Strange corrupted by it, why do we try to ignore it's influence?
 

Stalker0

Legend
Your whole premise about Wanda assumes a rational actor with a lot more knowledge about a situation than she has. I think that's very poor framing to approach it with.
So the original premise of my argument was around the statement that Wanda is the "hero" of Wandavision. That is what I'm disputing.

In subsequent debates, I feel her trauma is being used as a way to "excuse" her actions, which I do not accept. They make her more sympathetic certainly, but they don't absolve her from the guilt of those actions.
 

Does anyone consider Hawkeye a villain in Avengers when he was mind controlled by Loki? And when he snapped out of it doing everything he could to set it right?

Why the double standard given to the Darkhold? We see Strange after Strange corrupted by it, why do we try to ignore it's influence?

The argument usually seems to be that she did not have as good a reason to risk it, which ignores the fact she didn't know as much about it as Strange does, nor was she in a stable mental place at the time.
 

So the original premise of my argument was around the statement that Wanda is the "hero" of Wandavision. That is what I'm disputing.

In subsequent debates, I feel her trauma is being used as a way to "excuse" her actions, which I do not accept. They make her more sympathetic certainly, but they don't absolve her from the guilt of those actions.

And as I noted, I'm not claiming she's a hero at most points in the process. But I think your argument still assumes a more rational actor than she is at any point when she makes bad decisions; you're talking about someone who has a psychotic break, then recovers from that to deal with the guilt of what she does while finding out her understanding of the nature of her powers is not the reality of them, and then the immediate and obvious place to find out more about them is far more insidious than she has any way of knowing.

I think that she's absolutely a villain in MoM; I'm less willing to say so in Wandavision, even though she causes considerable harm. And I think comparing her to Ultron or Thanos is seriously off; if you absolutely have to compare her to another MCU villain, you're at least closer to the mark if you use Zemo or Ghost, though both of them are more in their right mind when they start the process.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I think that she's absolutely a villain in MoM; I'm less willing to say so in Wandavision, even though she causes considerable harm. And I think comparing her to Ultron or Thanos is seriously off; if you absolutely have to compare her to another MCU villain, you're at least closer to the mark if you use Zemo or Ghost, though both of them are more in their right mind when they start the process.
In WandaVision, she's a tragic hero. She is subject to horrible misfortunes and, through error and misjudgment, creates harm without evil intent. But she is still, at her core, a decent individual and that's obvious by her opposition to Agatha and ultimate giving up of her Vision and kids to release the people she has kidnapped when confronted with the extent of the harm she has caused.
That's pretty solidly a tragic hero.
 




MarkB

Legend
I think it's 50/50 whether Wanda's dead. Before now, their best option for bringing her back would be by having her not have died, but at this point they can just sub in alternate-universe Wanda if they want her. Heck, they already did it to Gamora.
 

Does anyone consider Hawkeye a villain in Avengers when he was mind controlled by Loki? And when he snapped out of it doing everything he could to set it right?

Why the double standard given to the Darkhold? We see Strange after Strange corrupted by it, why do we try to ignore it's influence?

It is because some people here are not willing to give the same room for doubt, or redemption, for a woman, they way they would for a man. The subtle sexism and misogyny, as well as dismissal of serious mental and emotional trauma, is disappointing, to say the least.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
In WandaVision, she's a tragic hero. She is subject to horrible misfortunes and, through error and misjudgment, creates harm without evil intent. But she is still, at her core, a decent individual and that's obvious by her opposition to Agatha and ultimate giving up of her Vision and kids to release the people she has kidnapped when confronted with the extent of the harm she has caused.
That's pretty solidly a tragic hero.

in the real world a mentally unstable kidnapper doesnt get to walk away because they said sorry and let their victims go. They certainly arent called heroic, even moreso when its implied that Wanda is torturing the people in the town and the children she has suspended in their rooms are slowing dying. Also Agatha is the person attempting to help the town, albeit for her own ends but Wanda opposing her certainly isnt a sign of moral decency.

The Purple Man of Jessica Jones (Netflix) is presented to have been experimented on as a child and to then become an manipulative mind controlling villain. He did exactly the same thing as Wanda did - mind controlled people, killing many, his punishment was execution by Jessica no possibility of redemption.
 

in the real world a mentally unstable kidnapper doesnt get to walk away because they said sorry and let their victims go. They certainly arent called heroic, even moreso when its implied that Wanda is torturing the people in the town and the children she has suspended in their rooms are slowing dying. Also Agatha is the person attempting to help the town, albeit for her own ends but Wanda opposing her certainly isnt a sign of moral decency.

The Purple Man of Jessica Jones (Netflix) is presented to have been experimented on as a child and to then become an manipulative mind controlling villain. He did exactly the same thing as Wanda did - mind controlled people, killing many, his punishment was execution by Jessica no possibility of redemption.

The difference is that there's no sign the Purple Man had any ability to recognize he'd done anything wrong, which was clearly not the case with Wanda. Wanda, to the degree she harmed people, did it with no real intent; the Purple Man did it not only without concern, but often maliciously.

If people are gonna make analogies here, you need to at least compare like to like.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
in the real world a mentally unstable kidnapper doesnt get to walk away because they said sorry and let their victims go. They certainly arent called heroic, even moreso when its implied that Wanda is torturing the people in the town and the children she has suspended in their rooms are slowing dying. Also Agatha is the person attempting to help the town, albeit for her own ends but Wanda opposing her certainly isnt a sign of moral decency.
Are we down the rabbit hole?
The Purple Man of Jessica Jones (Netflix) is presented to have been experimented on as a child and to then become an manipulative mind controlling villain. He did exactly the same thing as Wanda did - mind controlled people, killing many, his punishment was execution by Jessica no possibility of redemption.
Wow. Just wow.
 

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