Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

[Stalker0]

Just like Doctor Strange does?

Doctor Strange

• Does it to save the world....the world. Hell maybe the entire multiverse. Not to indulge in fantasy.
• Does it for a very limited amount of time.
• Has a friend help him because he knows how corrupting it can be, and he needs her to help keep him in check.
• Only does it as a last resort after other better options have been tried.

Not the same thing in the slightest.

 

[Stalker0]

Doesn't Charles give his school to Magneto when goes off with his space girlfriend (into space)?

Doesn't the White Queen end up running it for a while?

Isn't this kinda par for the course with Marvel?

hehe we can argue morality of other characters in another thread if you like. Wanda is hardly the only case where this issue occurs, but I wouldn't call it "par for the course". It happens more often than it should absolutely.

 

[Stalker0]

So circiling back to what started this tangent, the argument initially presented was that Wanda was the hero because she beat up the villains.

I feel like I have demonstrated that Wanda is no more heroic in this story than any of the villains. At the end of the day its one villain beating up another, its Thanos vs Ultron if you will. Its basically a turf war.

We can argue how low Wanda got in this show, and how much her acts can be forgiven, but to call her the hero of the story is simply not true.

Also we can point to the beginning of MoM, which is several years after the events of Wandavision. Has Wanda shown any remorse, did she try to help the people she hurt in any way?.....nope, zero, zilch. If we had seen that, we could at least go with the remorseful character that becomes a hero again....but nope we don't get that either.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Doctor Strange

• Does it to save the world....the world. Not to indulge in fantasy.
• Does it for a very limited amount of time.
• Has a friend help him because he knows who corrupting it can be, and he needs her to help keep him in check.
• Only does it as a last resort after other better options have been tried.

Not the same thing in the slightest.

Saving the world is just a convenient excuse. Strange couldn't walk past an evil book without catching a quick peak. He's not been in Kamar-taj a week before he's breaking into the forbidden section of the library. Put him on the same plane as the One Ring and he would be taking up occupancy in Barad Dur before you could say Elbereth.

 

[billd91]

If any hero's dissection could create a new hero to save people, why wouldn't you do it? Ignore that vision was an android, harnessing power for protection is what governmental agencies like Sword are supposed to do.

Body autonomy. It's a big deal lately. If Vision or his next of kin gave permission for it, then sure. But they didn't. So no.

 

[billd91]

Yeah, I have to say that I'm not taking it as a given 616 Wanda is actually dead for a while; that's exactly how you frame a not-really-dead scene in pulp tradition.

Why are we talking 616 Wanda? We delving into her status in the comics now?

 

[Stalker0]

Saving the world is just a convenient excuse. Strange couldn't walk past an evil book without catching a quick peak. He's not been in Kamar-taj a week before he's breaking into the forbidden section of the library. Put him on the same plane as the One Ring and he would be taking up occupancy in Barad Dur before you could say Elbereth.

And sure, the character of Dr Strange in the beginning of his first movie is not a hero either...that's the point. He has to go on the journey, learning to deal with his arrogance and focus on the greater good. Even into MoM, we see various Stranges that have gone too far, and become villains in their own right. What helps keep our Dr Strange on the heroic path is that he opens up to Christine and America, relies on them for help, and sees how his obsession could lead to the dark side if he keeps pursuing it, so he doesn't push too far.

But at the end of the day, Dr Strange risks himself to save the world...its a heroic act. Now is that character flaw still there....absolutely. Could it lead to a fall in the future....absolutely. Just as Wanda's power and grief have always been ways she could fall. The difference is....Wanda did fall, Strange hasn't.....yet.

That's what makes the hero's path so difficult, its not a one and done. These heroes have to STAY heroic, that's the real challenge in the narrative.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

These heroes have to STAY heroic

Nah, they don't. It's a revolving door.

 

[billd91]

So circiling back to what started this tangent, the argument initially presented was that Wanda was the hero because she beat up the villains.

I feel like I have demonstrated that Wanda is no more heroic in this story than any of the villains. At the end of the day its one villain beating up another, its Thanos vs Ultron if you will. Its basically a turf war.

That's a pretty terrible take on it. Both of those are mass murder oriented villains. Wanda, while suffering from mental illness, kidnaps a town to create a delusional fantasy world.

 

[Blue]

If any hero's dissection could create a new hero to save people, why wouldn't you do it? Ignore that vision was an android, harnessing power for protection is what governmental agencies like Sword are supposed to do.

Even in the real world, we can't harvest organs that could save people unless the person intentionally opted in. Body autonomy is perhaps the most basic of rights - you own yourself - and at least in the US it still applies after death.

 

[Stalker0]

That's a pretty terrible take on it. Both of those are mass murder oriented villains.

Hang on a minute. Sword is never shown as "mass murdering", they are a military oriented arm of the government. If you had your standard movie where the police were dealing with a guy who held 100 people hostage in a bank, and the police were able to snipe the guy and save the hostages.... no one would think the police the villains of that story or mass murderers.

Agatha.... the only people we have seen she murdered was the covenant that tried to kill her. Now could she be a mass murderer, sure I could believe it, but we haven't seen that.

 

[billd91]

Hang on a minute. Sword is never shown as "mass murdering", they are a military oriented arm of the government. If you had your standard movie where the police were dealing with a guy who held 100 people hostage in a bank, and the police were able to snipe the guy and save the hostages.... no one would think the police the villains of that story or mass murderers.

Agatha.... the only people we have seen she murdered was the covenant that tried to kill her. Now could she be a mass murderer, sure I could believe it, but we haven't seen that.

I quoted you - you used THANOS and ULTRON as your examples. That's like comparing the dispute over Northern Ireland's markets between Britain and the EU with the genocidal war between the Nazis and Soviets. There is literally no reasonable comparison there.

And as far as SWORD and police sniping hostage takers in a bank, if you think sniping someone who has shown no actual inclination of putting the lives of the hostages at risk is acceptable, that's really problematic.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And sure, the character of Dr Strange in the beginning of his first movie is not a hero either...that's the point. He has to go on the journey, learning to deal with his arrogance and focus on the greater good. Even into MoM, we see various Stranges that have gone too far, and become villains in their own right. What helps keep our Dr Strange on the heroic path is that he opens up to Christine and America, relies on them for help, and sees how his obsession could lead to the dark side if he keeps pursuing it, so he doesn't push too far.

But at the end of the day, Dr Strange risks himself to save the world...its a heroic act. Now is that character flaw still there....absolutely. Could it lead to a fall in the future....absolutely. Just as Wanda's power and grief have always been ways she could fall. The difference is....Wanda did fall, Strange hasn't.....yet.

That's what makes the hero's path so difficult, its not a one and done. These heroes have to STAY heroic, that's the real challenge in the narrative.

We went across the multiverse and met bunch of different Stranges. And they ALL read the Darkhold.

 

[Mallus]

hehe we can argue morality of other characters in another thread if you like. Wanda is hardly the only case where this issue occurs, but I wouldn't call it "par for the course". It happens more often than it should absolutely.

I was partially kidding. I thought someone would reply "Charles Xavier was no prize himself!". Child endangerment is practically his brand.

Seriously, though, I think people swinging between good and bad in comic book stories is fundamentally a positive thing (exaggerated as it must be, given the context). It's honest.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You mean taking the super dark evil book and immediately diving into it? (and that's not even the movie, that's wandavision)

You mean the only source of magical knowledge she has, that as the viewer you have a frame of reference that tells you how bad it is that she doesn't? I mean, yes, she has reason to believe its not good, but has no idea of the relentlessly corrupting nature of it because she doesn't know anything about magic.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Just like Doctor Strange does?

Strange is much more careful with it (at least ours is); but then, he also has immensely more information about it than she does. What she knows about it comes from brief conversations with Agatha, who isn't exactly a trustworthy source.

 

[Thomas Shey]

We can argue how low Wanda got in this show, and how much her acts can be forgiven, but to call her the hero of the story is simply not true.

To be clear, I'm not arguing she's the hero of this; I'm simply arguing that "villain" in this case has a serious lack of nuance. Her volition is compromised every step of the way by trauma and a malign magical outside influence. During Wandavision I'd argue that throughout most of the series she's simply under a psychotic break, and by the time of the the movie, the Darkhold has had its way with her for weeks or months.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Also we can point to the beginning of MoM, which is several years after the events of Wandavision. Has Wanda shown any remorse, did she try to help the people she hurt in any way?.....nope, zero, zilch. If we had seen that, we could at least go with the remorseful character that becomes a hero again....but nope we don't get that either.

I have to point out the crowd had made it abundantly clear they wanted nothing more to do with her at the end of Wandavision. When someone you've harmed tells you pretty much outright to leave them the hell alone, that's what you do.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Why are we talking 616 Wanda? We delving into her status in the comics now?

That's the term they're using for the core universe in the MCU too; the alternate universe Christing Palmer uses it.

 

[Stalker0]

I have to point out the crowd had made it abundantly clear they wanted nothing more to do with her at the end of Wandavision. When someone you've harmed tells you pretty much outright to leave them the hell alone, that's what you do.

What every drug addict is told...you make amends. And if that is standing in front of them so they can rant to you about how nasty you were to them....so be it.