Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

[Davies]

"The Darkhold taints all it touches!"
"But not me, right?"
"Yes, even you, Steven Strange!"
"Well, I'll probably be fiaaaaahhh I've grown an eye in the middle of my forehead!"
"See, even you, Steven Strange!"
"... actually this is kind of cool. It seems that I'm just as good of a guy with a third eye as I was without one. Wow, I'm really privileged!"
"Yes, that is exactly the right word."

 

[Asisreo]

"The Darkhold taints all it touches!"
"But not me, right?"
"Yes, even you, Steven Strange!"
"Well, I'll probably be fiaaaaahhh I've grown an eye in the middle of my forehead!"
"See, even you, Steven Strange!"
"... actually this is kind of cool. It seems that I'm just as good of a guy with a third eye as I was without one. Wow, I'm really privileged!"
"Yes, that is exactly the right word."

I feel like they're setting up this strange as the new Strange Supreme and will have them be a villain for the next phase.

Right now, he's set up to be the villain that will end up trying to right his own wrongs at the very end, imo.

 

[Thomas Shey]

If people are gonna feel this is unearned and came out of nowhere, they just are. Looks anything but to me.

 

[tomBitonti]

I must have missed the final post-credits scene when I watched it first time, because I have no memory of it. Not that it really changes how I feel about Wanda's suddenly becoming a homicidal maniac. Yes that scene hints at Wanda dabbling with Forbidden Things. But... so what? That scene, with some oft repeated lines about "the Darkhold is Bad, mm'kay" comes across as inadequate motivation for Wanda's extreme change. And that, the failure to give justification equal to the character's change, is why it feels like a lazy trope. Look, it's clearly a case of YMMV. I don't object to Wanda going bad. I object to the way in which it was done in MoM.

Additional text omitted. Folks who saw Agents of Shield season 4 would understand what a terrible peril is reading the Darkhold. It helps people do what they want while insidiously amplifying their negative aspects.

But, Agents of Shield is not canon, and I would expect the folks who saw season 4 are a smaller group than those who watched WandaVision. WandaVision was watched by about 6.5 million people (in the united states), and MoM seems to be easily surpassing that ($90,000,000 earnings in the US in the first weekend). WandaVision is again a smaller group than watched MoM.

And, I really don't think viewers of the movie should be expected to have watched either Agents of Shield or WandaVision to understand the nature of the DarkHold, not to the degree which is necessary to understand the role the DarkHold plays in the movie.

TomB

 

[This Effin’ GM]

Just thinking about Proff X saying out loud “you should escape” and then bouncing cause he knew he had to get to Reed before Reed did that not so fantastic thing of info dumping everything the villain needs to know.

 

[trappedslider]

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Additional text omitted. Folks who saw Agents of Shield season 4 would understand what a terrible peril is reading the Darkhold. It helps people do what they want while insidiously amplifying their negative aspects.

But, Agents of Shield is not canon, and I would expect the folks who saw season 4 are a smaller group than those who watched WandaVision. WandaVision was watched by about 6.5 million people (in the united states), and MoM seems to be easily surpassing that ($90,000,000 earnings in the US in the first weekend). WandaVision is again a smaller group than watched MoM.

And, I really don't think viewers of the movie should be expected to have watched either Agents of Shield or WandaVision to understand the nature of the DarkHold, not to the degree which is necessary to understand the role the DarkHold plays in the movie.

TomB

(PSA: I'm drifting away from whether or not Wanda's personality shift was done well or not.)

This does raise an interesting question about how we watch media as part of an extended universe. Even discounting non-canon (Agents of Shield) there's an issue with how much an audience member is supposed to know. Kevin Feige has said (I paraphrase) : that each movie stands alone and there's no need to see other movies to enjoy one of them. In the same statement he also said being across the wider MCU will have pay offs in terms of a richer experience. This second part is much more true than the first part.

Most extreme example: What would someone who watched Avengers Endgame have gotten out of it if they hadn't at least watched Infinity War? Likewise Wanda's Face-Heel turn would be totally out of the blue for someone who hasn't seen WandaVision.

I've got no answers here. Just pondering.

 

[Thomas Shey]

(PSA: I'm drifting away from whether or not Wanda's personality shift was done well or not.)

This does raise an interesting question about how we watch media as part of an extended universe. Even discounting non-canon (Agents of Shield) there's an issue with how much an audience member is supposed to know. Kevin Feige has said (I paraphrase) : that each movie stands alone and there's no need to see other movies to enjoy one of them. In the same statement he also said being across the wider MCU will have pay offs in terms of a richer experience. This second part is much more true than the first part.

I think its uneven how this works. Though I quite liked Multiverse of Madness, I'll freely admit that parts of it are going to be very much informed situations without having watched at least the last couple episodes of Wandavision.

Most extreme example: What would someone who watched Avengers Endgame have gotten out of it if they hadn't at least watched Infinity War? Likewise Wanda's Face-Heel turn would be totally out of the blue for someone who hasn't seen WandaVision.

I've got no answers here. Just pondering.

I think Infinity War/Endgame are a special case. Though avowedly separate movies, at the end of the day they're really two parts of one very long movie (and its not a coincidence at one point in process were going to be called Infinity War Part One and Part Two).

 

[tomBitonti]

Most extreme example: What would someone who watched Avengers Endgame have gotten out of it if they hadn't at least watched Infinity War? Likewise Wanda's Face-Heel turn would be totally out of the blue for someone who hasn't seen WandaVision.

(Additional text omitted.)

I think Avengers Endgame works stand-alone, actually, pretty well.

A part of that is due to the lengthy build-up, where the effects of the snap are both described and shown quite clearly.

I think this works better for AE than it does for MoM because the primary effect is external, and relatable. You could substitute any world-changing effect, such as a limited nuclear war or bio-weapon release and have a similar outcome. One doesn't have to reach very far to understand what happened and to see the consequences.

In MoM, on the other hand, the effects are internal: The conversion of Wanda to her unbalanced, misdirected, self. While I would argue the effect is simply not shown well enough, there is an extra difficulty in that the effect is internal, which makes it harder to understand. We need a lot more character development for Wanda.

(I personally think that the story-telling in MoM being not as good as in AE makes the story work less well, stand-alone, but that is a different matter.)

I have a question: Why would Wanda want to raise the children from a different Branch of the Multiverse? While the characters are similar, they are definitely not the same. Why would she want to displace an alternate version of herself to raise children who would not really be her own? If she was afraid for their safety, couldn't she act as a Multiversal guardian?

Or, wouldn't there be some Branches where Wanda was killed, and the children left as orphans?

Wanda: "Hey, America, my alternate died in Branch XYZ, could you send me over there so that I could look after the children she left behind?"

America: Sure thing!

TomB

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I think its uneven how this works. Though I quite liked Multiverse of Madness, I'll freely admit that parts of it are going to be very much informed situations without having watched at least the last couple episodes of Wandavision.

I think Infinity War/Endgame are a special case. Though avowedly separate movies, at the end of the day they're really two parts of one very long movie (and its not a coincidence at one point in process were going to be called Infinity War Part One and Part Two).

Yeah the experience is definitely uneven depending on what any given audience member has seen. I guess it can't be anything but, a "shared universe" is big by definition and different people are going to commit differently.

The longer a character is the in MCU the more narrative weight (hell, let's just call it baggage) they bring with them. More baggage means more expectation on the audience to know the baggage OR the more work that has to be done by a given piece of media.

It makes me wonder how long things can go before the MCU gets too impenetrable and people start switching off.

Which is a problem the comics themselves have faced and (I think) failed to overcome.

(Additional text omitted.)

I think Avengers Endgame works stand-alone, actually, pretty well.

A part of that is due to the lengthy build-up, where the effects of the snap are both described and shown quite clearly.

I think this works better for AE than it does for MoM because the primary effect is external, and relatable. You could substitute any world-changing effect, such as a limited nuclear war or bio-weapon release and have a similar outcome. One doesn't have to reach very far to understand what happened and to see the consequences.

In MoM, on the other hand, the effects are internal: The conversion of Wanda to her unbalanced, misdirected, self. While I would argue the effect is simply not shown well enough, there is an extra difficulty in that the effect is internal, which makes it harder to understand. We need a lot more character development for Wanda.

(I personally think that the story-telling in MoM being not as good as in AE makes the story work less well, stand-alone, but that is a different matter.)

I have a question: Why would Wanda want to raise the children from a different Branch of the Multiverse? While the characters are similar, they are definitely not the same. Why would she want to displace an alternate version of herself to raise children who would not really be her own? If she was afraid for their safety, couldn't she act as a Multiversal guardian?

Or, wouldn't there be some Branches where Wanda was killed, and the children left as orphans?

Wanda: "Hey, America, my alternate died in Branch XYZ, could you send me over there so that I could look after the children she left behind?"

America: Sure thing!

TomB

I agree on all points. Especially given just how dangerous the life of an Avenger is, you'd expect a high body count of Wandas. (What a strange sentence. ) There must be some orphan versions of the kids in need of looking after.