Draw Steel: Fake variety helps no one

[SteveC]

Yes. They especially wanted each class to earn resources when they did something archetypical to the class. When the tactician is tacticiioning, they should gain their resource. One of the problems is that some classes ended up being useless with certain monster configurations, because their trigger condition never emerged. If I remember somewhat correctly, the balancing became a nightmare, especially on GMs having to balance and build encounters, so they dropped it.

I remember the same comments. I sometimes give suggestions to game designers (small, very indie), and one of my favorites is "kill your darlings." I am not in a position to find the quote and article with it, but it was a good piece of design advice. Heck, it may even have been written by Matt(!!) I am really waiting to see the final release, and I'm still excited about the game, but I think this ended up being something you have to do too much work at for too little reward. But am I a world-famous game designer? No, I'm not, so I will reserve serious judgment until I get a chance to see the final game and play it.

 

[JonDeNor]

Between the different resources and the different class names ... Draw Steel is giving me tryhard vibes. We're changing the names to make them different. I dunno, MTG designers always talk about resonance, using names that work with what you're trying to do, and this feels purposefully against that.

Honestly, some of the names feel a bit "different for different's sake". Some of them I feel is more justified: if they called the fury "barbarian", I think it'd give the wrong impression to players coming from D&D-adjecent games. The fury is kinda like a barbarian at first level, a little less at second level and not at all at fifth. Having the "familiar" names being so... loaded with meaning by D&D, makes it weird if you make something that's flavorfully (is that even a word?) and mechanicly different, but give it a familiar name.

They've also strived to not use the same word for different concepts, which is why you get "echelons" instead of "tiers of play". Tier is already used for power roll result outcomes. I like that, but that's a personal thing.

 

[DEFCON 1]

No one has made this complaint about Daggerheart that I am aware of.

You mean no one's bothered to start a thread about it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You mean no one's bothered to start a thread about it.

I mean, it's a not a complaint I've seen around, even though people have a lot of very specific complaints re: Daggerheart (like most RPGs, especially new ones). Any RPG which has a generic cross-class resource should theoretically see this complaint but they don't.

With this system I think the main issue isn't that different classes have different names for the resource, nor different ways to gain extra of the resource (which would be normal even with a cross-class resource, c.f. assorted videogames which do precisely that), nor that they essentially use the same resource, it's the 2 vs. 1d3 thing. That's an unnecessary annoyance that shouldn't have got through playtesting.

 

[Vael]

Also, just going by the classes listed by the OP ... some names feel like they'd be a better fit for a more sci-fi fantasy RPG, than a DnD derivative. I know Draw Steel is supposed to have it's own default setting, so maybe that's intentional? I will admit I still know very little about the system and setting. Just again, it's a resonance thing. "Conduit" and "Null" feel like Numenera classes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I know Draw Steel is supposed to have it's own default setting, so maybe that's intentional?

It is intentional.

The default Draw Steel setting is a science-fantasy setting, or rather I'd call it "fantasy-science", because it's way more fantasy in trappings than say, Star Wars, but still somewhat more science-fiction-y in trappings than say, the Forgotten Realms, or even Spelljammer. It has spaceships and space stations and aliens and somewhat science-y psionics (which the Null and Talent both do). And your campaign could potentially avoid all that, but by default it's out there, and PCs can pick the alien races (Memonek and Time Raider) as PCs with no special limits or anything.

 

[Ringtail]

Yeah Matt likes his sci-fi stuff. That AD&D Barrier Peaks type vibe is pretty on brand for him.

For example, in his chain of Acharon game they spent a significant amount of time on the astral plane (with background music created by modular synthesizer) and in another one (Dusk I believe) he gave a PC a talking robot arm ripped straight from a mid-century sci-fi serial (complete with robot voice). He even made a video about that one.

 

[SteveC]

Also, just going by the classes listed by the OP ... some names feel like they'd be a better fit for a more sci-fi fantasy RPG, than a DnD derivative. I know Draw Steel is supposed to have it's own default setting, so maybe that's intentional? I will admit I still know very little about the system and setting. Just again, it's a resonance thing. "Conduit" and "Null" feel like Numenera classes.

I think you're right. I think that Matt really enjoys some of the magic/fantasy crossover stuff from the 1970s. I get a lot of those vibes from him. There was a time when the "magic as crazy techology" thing was really big. And weird.

 

[aramis erak]

I would imagine that if every class had the same metacurrency that refreshed in the same exact way for the exact same amount, it would put off an equal amount of people than it is doing right now currently. There's no way for any company to win this design battle. Either method will irritate the same number of folks.

Most games with metacurrency have multiple... Then again, XP/AP are metacurrency, even tho' most don't think of it as such. HP also are on the border of metacurrency, especially when defined as AD&D did.

2d20 has momentum (PC)/Threat(GM), and a third, which varies by setting, destiny/luck/etc...
Fate has 1 unified, and doesn't have XP in most flavors.
Cortex Plus has 1, Plot Points. MHRP has a different one for the GM, the Doom Pool.
D&D 5E has 1 (Inspiration - very limited use, but it is metacurrency)
WFRP 1e (Fate Points)
MSH/AMSH: Karma (it's not just for advancement.)
WEG Star Wars: Fate Points, and in 2e, Character Points (Not just for advancement)
FFG Star Wars: Destiny points and XP; all the other metacurrency-style elements are not durable, so whether threat/advantage & triumph/despair is a matter of definition.

 

[Tonguez]

I mean, it's a not a complaint I've seen around, even though people have a lot of very specific complaints re: Daggerheart (like most RPGs, especially new ones). Any RPG which has a generic cross-class resource should theoretically see this complaint but they don't.

Most games with metacurrency have multiple... Then again, XP/AP are metacurrency, even tho' most don't think of it as such. HP also are on the border of metacurrency, especially when defined as AD&D did.

Metacurrencies are a good mechanic, that gives players a choice and a physical token to use to affect game flow, they add to fun.
But mechanics are not the Game and that (I think) is where the mistake of "everyone gets a different resource" comes in. People in play, dont want to try to remember 20 different words that all mean the same thing, thats a burden not a fun dynamic. It doesnt need to be a unified resource either, having a few like "arcane" "martial" "primal" "psionic" "divine" is fine, they cover broad categories and the connections make sense in the Game, but the 'fake' dynamic of every resource is different is not useful especially once fiddly bits like 1d3 are piled on to make it worse