E-Tools owners, please grade it

[Fast Learner]

Plus, to edit e-tools databases, you need MS Acess, a program a *lot* of people don't have. For PCGen, you just need a text editor.

Actually, you don't. Theres a free tool out there that lets you edit Access-based databases. It's been mentioned in several eTools threads. Since I have Access I've not used it, but it does exist.

So aside from the GUI, which is a matter of opinion, in what way does e-tools possibly outdo PCGen?

XML output, which I need for another tool I'm working on. Monster advancement. Treasure generation. Table generation including the ability to automatically create entire encounters, not just a single creature.

I'm certainly not claiming either tool is ultimately better; just answering your question.

 

[Hardhead]

XML output, which I need for another tool I'm working on.

Hmmm. OK, it doesn't have that one, I'll give you. I think they're working on it, but I'm not sure.

Monster advancement.

PCGen has this. Just add "levels" of Dragon, or Humanoid, or Magical Beast or whatever type of creature it is.

Treasure generation.

If you mean just creating treasure, PCGen does this, and supports far more than e-tools. If you mean random treasure generation, that's true, PCGen doesn't do that.

Table generation including the ability to automatically create entire encounters, not just a single creature.

What do you mean by "creatue entire encounter?" You can create multiple creatures in PCGen, and even if you can't export their stat blocks to the same document, it's pretty easy to copy-and-paste them into the same word doc. Or do you mean random encoutners?

 

[Morik]

Actually I gave E-Tools a 'C' as most of the people, I think.
And I believe that's what E-Tools is all about - it's an average product (for now, but that could be easily change into a 'A' Product, IMHO).

The fact I grade it to C is not based mostly on the features of E-Tools itself, but of the lack of user support from Fluid.

Take a middle-sized Computer Game Company or even a huge one like Electronic Arts. They all (maybe there are some exceptions) are trying to bring out a patch asap after releasing their software. This is considered to be standard (and E-tools brought out a software and they invested time like Blizzard for
Warcraft - almost ;-)

May I miss something but Fluid didn't bring out a patch or something else so far, correct?

And now to the comparison of PCGen and E-Tools:

In my opinion E-Tools has strength and weaknesses and PCGen too. I'm using PCGen right now instead of E-Tools. Why? Well... because PCGen were first out (long first out before E-Tools) and I'm now used to it. For me it's easy and fast to use.

There are some fields which E-Tools (IMHO) does better than PCGen, for instance the monster advancement. I find it faster and easier than in PCGen.

What I'm missing in E-Tools is the lack of Prestige Classes and IN PARTICLUAR the Campaign World 'Forgotten Realms'. I'm playing with the realms since it came out. It's like my youth of Roleplaying since I first rolled the dice for damage.

Now PCGen doesn't longer support FR and the Wotc Supplements (this is sad but not all is lost for me, hehe)!!

So my 'C' grade refelects that fact too:
I'm missing all the supplements, campaign Worlds and such of WOTC products and before I forget it: The fantastic Dragon Magazine.

What I would like to see for istance wourld be a monthly add on with Dragon Magazine Prestige Classes, Magic Items and so on.
The same for new supplements (and old ones of course) etc..

I knew this is like spending a wish from those rare 'Rings' but hey,
if I would have one then maybe I would wish for it ;-)

Eric

 

[Klintus Fang]

...talking about ovject oriented programming languages, garbage collection, and advocating C#...

I completely disagree. I do agree that an object oriented approach is what should be used for such a project, but that is what C++ is. C# doesn't add anything new in that respect that a tool like this actually needs. On top of that C# is new, and has yet to prove itself in the market place. No major commercial software product has yet been written in C#. Why then would it be the "best choice?". Until it has proven itself in the market place there's no way it could be the best choice for any kind of project. I'm not saying it's a bad choice but to imply it was a bad choice not to use C# doesn't make any sense.

My 2cents on C#:
C# is a language that is compiled at runtime (its really nothing more than Microsofts variation on Java). That along leads me to suggest it would be a bad idea to use it for a tool like this. I would suggest using C++ with a Visual Basic frontend. I don't know if that is what they did.


That said, I do agree with other programmers who have suggested that the design of the program's internal data structures was probably not the best design. I haven't seen them of course, but one can infer some things about there design from the things that fluid have said on their message boards. Fluid's answer to why there is no template support and why you cannot "roll back" class levels was "that would require a complete rewrite of the data structures". It follows that the internal data structures were not well planned (in my opinion).

But I'm not faulting fluid for this. The project had its direction changed multiple times by WoTC who contracted fluid to do it. There's really no way to know if the weaknessess are the fault of Fluid's programming approach, or the fault of WoTC's management of the project.

That said: I gave the program a C. I'd give it a B if I had faith that it was going to have continued support and development. Because in that case it would be safe to assume the weaknesses would be fixed eventually. But I have no such faith.

 

[Klintus Fang]

On the subject of PCGen: I've seen character sheets created by PCGen and they are impressive (vastly superior to those created by Etools if you use the xsl files provided by fluid in the Etools distribution).

The problem with PCGen is that on my lower end machines it runs as slow as mollasses and is thus unusable on those machines. For a simple character generator, I consider that unacceptable. I know writing a full featured character generator is a lot of work, but there's no reason it should require a highend machine to run it. I really wish PCGen was not written in Java. Then I'd be intersted in it and would even consider contributing to the project, because it's a quality product (though I do dislike the interface (it's no worse than Etool's interface though!)).

Running on Java, its just too slow for my tastes. I know its not slow on a fast machine, but I want to be able to run my character generator on my slow machine too.

 

[Klaus]

Another feature that is sadly missing: Leveling Down. If your character loses a level to an energy drain, you'd better have the previous versions of the character saved. Otherwise you'll have to re-build your character from scratch.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I gave it a C. The longer I play with it, the more I dislike that some elements of D&D are missing. I'm a big fan of templates, and unless I just haven't found them yet, they aren't in e-Tools. I'm certainly no programming expert, so maybe they're there and I haven't located them. But I suspect they aren't.

 

[Klintus Fang]

templates are not there. There are "work arounds" for this posted on the Etools message board, but the workarounds will not work well in general, especially for templates like ghosts, where you select a random number of the special abilities, when the template is assigned.

 

[Airwolf]

Wow, the 'GPA' has fallen to 1.80.

 

[MoonSpider]

I really wanted to like this program, I got it as a birthday present from my parents, who knew I gamed, and knew I used my computer to write adventures . (They don't understand DnD, but they try.)

You just can't customize it. You can't add feats, of which I have a few hundred from various sources. You can't add prestige classes, again I have a few hundred. There are no templates, and no way to add them. You can't add equipment, or at least I couldn't figure out how. You can't add races.

There is no useful manual.

There are no roll over "what is this" indicators, just obscure symbols.

It doesn't make a good statblock.

It was a year late, and still didn't do what it was originally planned to do!

What it does do it does badly.

It is going to be more than six months since the program came out before they have a gold patch. And the first patch didn't even fix the errors, just added new functions!

Some of these things have been fixed with E-Tools helper, but they shouldn't have needed fixing.

I want Master Tools! I want something that I can write an adventure with! I want a mapper and all the things Master Tools was supposed to have.

Yes, I know I'm whining, but I had such high hopes, and it didn't meet any of them.

I really hope that they come out with a new version after DnD 3.5 comes out, or they iron out any problems with PCGen and all the other programs out there, it really bothers me that they won't allow PCGen to roll the dice when creating characters, and I can't get the point buy system to work right.

I'm probably going to download and try Roleplaying Master, but frankly, it does more than I need it to, I don't want a computer at the table. (I know it doesn't make sense, I would be willing to pay the money just for the adventure writing and character generation functions, but I keep thinking that I'm paying for in game funtions that I won't use.) I'll get over that, if I can just get myself past that mental block. That and remember to set aside the money.

MoonSpider (Sorry that my first post was a whine, but I've been sitting on it for a while)