Eberron - Cool or Drool?

[The_Gneech]

For example here.

Well, I read it, and looked at "Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal." So far, my impression is pretty much the same. I think the key problem is addressed by the fact that the paragraph under the heading, "What sets Eberron apart from other D&D campaign settings?" described pretty much every other D&D setting equally well. The key selling point can be boiled down to, "It's just like D&D but cooler!" So what's actually cooler about it?

"It's pulp adventure!" -- When has D&D not been that?

"It's noir!" -- Hooray, I'll go tell the folks at White Wolf.

"It's got Warforged!" -- See earlier in the thread for my thoughts on magic robots.

"It's got shifters! It's got changelings!" -- Yay, finally something different that interests me!

"It's got kalashtar!" -- Um ... okay?

My point is not to bash Eberron; any setting is only as good or bad as the game that takes place in it. It just seems like that for all the hype, hype, hype, there's not much that it does that existing settings couldn't do just as well already. And given that some of its main selling points are pointedly things that I'm not interested in, there's nothing that's really cool to make up for 'em.

In computer industry parlance, there's no Killer App. Or if there is, it's sure well-hidden. Thus, Eberron = indifference.

Find a killer app for me, and I'll be happy to get interested in it. (I'm notoriously resistant to becoming interested in stuff because I was called names by its proponents, however.)

-The Gneech

 

[BryonD]

Sorry, but it has to be said:

I you think Eberron is all about robots, trains, and dinosaurs, you are ignorant. Read up on it.

If you don't like it, that's fine. But don't hate it because you developed an incorrect assumption of the setting's theme based on a bad first impression.

WOTC really screwed up with it's initial promotional material. Dig a little deeper and you might be surprised at what you find.

On trains and dinosaurs I agree with you. It is WotC's fault that I have the impression that I have and it may be false.

However, are you saying that robots are less prevelant in Eberron than Elves are in Greyhawk? Even if there are a lot less warforged npcs than elven npcs, if I can make a whole party of warforged, then it seems to me that they must be fairly significant in the setting.

 

[Deadguy]

On trains and dinosaurs I agree with you. It is WotC's fault that I have the impression that I have and it may be false.

However, are you saying that robots are less prevelant in Eberron than Elves are in Greyhawk? Even if there are a lot less warforged npcs than elven npcs, if I can make a whole party of warforged, then it seems to me that they must be fairly significant in the setting.

On that last point, Bryon, surely that's a function of the DM's decision of how important he wants to make warforges in his campaign, and on how the group regards the PCs as being typical or atypical for the setting?

From what we've seen and heard so far, I think that the Warforged's niche is pretty flexible. If you want lots of 'em just say that many more survived the end of the War. if not, make most of them defunct.

But it's also clear from different people's descriptions of their campaigns, the niche of the adventuriing party varies. In some campaigns they are part of an entire category of people - the professional adventurer - so a party is somewhat indicative of the world's structure.

But in other campaigns - and I think that Keith has set up Eberron with this in mind - the PCs are exceptional people, who rise far above the humdrum of the world. By that approach a whole party made of Warforged tells you nothing about the role of Warforged in the world, other than that there at least 4 (or so) of them, and that these ones are heroes.

 

[~Johnny~]

Well, I read it, and looked at "Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal." So far, my impression is pretty much the same. I think the key problem is addressed by the fact that the paragraph under the heading, "What sets Eberron apart from other D&D campaign settings?" described pretty much every other D&D setting equally well. The key selling point can be boiled down to, "It's just like D&D but cooler!" So what's actually cooler about it?

Based on your question, "what's different?" seems to be the most important aspect of a campaign setting for you. And, though I only speak for myself when I say this, Eberron isn't hugely different. It's still swords and sorcery fantasy, with subtle twists rather than paradigm-shifting changes. It was built from the ground up with the concept of "this is D&D."

Don't confuse a campaign setting's distinctiveness with its value and coolness, though. What was so new and different about Forgotten Realms that set it apart from Greyhawk? Weren't they both just Tolkienesque fantasy with a few unique elements thrown in? Quibble all you like, but the answer to that question is yes. Some of the most popular campaign settings in the short history of RPGs have been more familiar than different. They've set themselves apart with depth, detail, and robust suppport. I believe Eberron is that kind of campaign setting.

As I said before, Eberron isn't Dark Sun or Ravenloft or Spelljammer. The people who expected it to be were the ones who saw the first preview images and assumed that it was a radical shift toward being "steampunk" or "magepunk." It's evolutionary, not revolutionary. That's not going to appeal to everyone, but it appeals to me. The really wild campaign settings are fun for a visit, but I think something that hews closer to standard D&D tends to make a better permanent home. Some people think Eberron is too weird, others think it's not different enough. That very range of opinions suggests to me that Eberron successfully strikes a balance.

 

[BryonD]

On that last point, Bryon, surely that's a function of the DM's decision of how important he wants to make warforges in his campaign, and on how the group regards the PCs as being typical or atypical for the setting?

Yes and no.

Obviously a DM has ultimate control. But the campaign setting is what WotC makes it to be. You can toss elves out of FR if you want to. But the books are still going to have a lot of elf stuff in them. So if you don't want elves it makes a lot more sense to simply not play in FR.

So I guess I am not talking about DMs. I am talking about default Eberron.

From what we've seen and heard so far, I think that the Warforged's niche is pretty flexible. If you want lots of 'em just say that many more survived the end of the War. if not, make most of them defunct.

But it's also clear from different people's descriptions of their campaigns, the niche of the adventuriing party varies. In some campaigns they are part of an entire category of people - the professional adventurer - so a party is somewhat indicative of the world's structure.

But in other campaigns - and I think that Keith has set up Eberron with this in mind - the PCs are exceptional people, who rise far above the humdrum of the world. By that approach a whole party made of Warforged tells you nothing about the role of Warforged in the world, other than that there at least 4 (or so) of them, and that these ones are heroes.

Fair enough. But the products that come will tell the truth of it. If npc warforged are roughly as common in Eberron as elf npcs are in FR products, then Eberron being "about robots" is a fair claim in my mind.

You indicate that this may not be the case. I hope you are proven out.

 

[The_Gneech]

Don't confuse a campaign setting's distinctiveness with its value and coolness, though. What was so new and different about Forgotten Realms that set it apart from Greyhawk? Weren't they both just Tolkienesque fantasy with a few unique elements thrown in? Quibble all you like, but the answer to that question is yes.

I won't quibble at all, I agree completely, which is why I'm indifferent to Forgotten Realms, too. If I want Tolkienesque, Greyhawk fits the bill and another setting is superfluous. A setting's distinctiveness is its value and coolness IMO.

YMMV

-The Gneech

 

[takyris]

Initially wasn't interested, but am now growing more excited. I like some of the history that's been concocted, and I like the way that magic, instead of being this great enormous thing that has little practical long-term effect aside from metaphorical value, is incorporated more fully into the world. That's a nice touch.

I'll probably end up getting this one -- and I don't get much. It'll come in handy in the homebrew world I'm making.

 

[Arnwyn]

So, at Piratecat's suggestion, here is the thread for anyone (like myself) that is completely, and totally apathetic towards the Eberron setting.

I suspect that everyone is probably going to withhold judgement regarding this setting until we actually see it. But, so far, I can think of very few published settings that would make me want to abandon my own homebrew.

Anyone else feel this way?

Well, yeah... but Eberron has nothing to do with it. You could have inserted any campaign name in there except for the one I run, and I would say the same thing. I have long since chosen my campaign multiverse - I'm certainly not going to be adopting a new campaign setting now. Not ever, actually.

I don't know why we need a specific thread about "apathetic towards Eberron" (other than it's the cool thing to do, I suppose). I didn't see a thread like this for Dawnforge, Midnight, Morningstar, and half-a-hundred other campaign settings that have come up. (Oh yeah, I guess it's also about WotC and the 900 lb. gorilla and all that...)

 

[3catcircus]

Well, I read it, and looked at "Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal." So far, my impression is pretty much the same. I think the key problem is addressed by the fact that the paragraph under the heading, "What sets Eberron apart from other D&D campaign settings?" described pretty much every other D&D setting equally well. The key selling point can be boiled down to, "It's just like D&D but cooler!" So what's actually cooler about it?

"It's pulp adventure!" -- When has D&D not been that?

"It's noir!" -- Hooray, I'll go tell the folks at White Wolf.

"It's got Warforged!" -- See earlier in the thread for my thoughts on magic robots.

"It's got shifters! It's got changelings!" -- Yay, finally something different that interests me!

"It's got kalashtar!" -- Um ... okay?

My point is not to bash Eberron; any setting is only as good or bad as the game that takes place in it. It just seems like that for all the hype, hype, hype, there's not much that it does that existing settings couldn't do just as well already. And given that some of its main selling points are pointedly things that I'm not interested in, there's nothing that's really cool to make up for 'em.

In computer industry parlance, there's no Killer App. Or if there is, it's sure well-hidden. Thus, Eberron = indifference.

Find a killer app for me, and I'll be happy to get interested in it. (I'm notoriously resistant to becoming interested in stuff because I was called names by its proponents, however.)

-The Gneech

I can't agree with this enough... The two main D&D campaign settings (Greyhawk and FR) were open-ended enough to allow all of this stuff. Pulp Adventure? Heck yeah - places like Mulhorand, Hepmonaland, Chult - all evoke images of The Mummy and Indiana Jones

Noir? Well - we have Ravenloft (even before it became its own demi-plane campaing setting...)

Warforged? Heck - any Gnome Artificer worth his salt can build one...

Its got Shifters and Changelings? Greyhawk and FR have plenty of Lycanthropes, Doppelgangers and Wild-shapers...

I just can't see them mish-mashing every genre together and having it be any more internally self-consistent than what they did with the various "non-core" FR areas... My point, like you, isn't to bash Eberron, but to point out the fact that the two main existing campaign settings had enough open space to allow a decent DM to spin the globe and place such genre somewhere...

Of course, that's what I loved about the old TSR campaign settings - they were *all* optional and allowed you to cherry-pick. Each campaign setting could concentrate on what it was. With Eberron, I get the sense that they are trying to cram too much stuff into one campaign setting, and will short-change all of it in th process.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Noir? Well - we have Ravenloft (even before it became its own demi-plane campaing setting...)

That's Ravenloft, not Greyhawk or the Realms...

Warforged? Heck - any Gnome Artificer worth his salt can build one...

Artificer isn't a core class in the Realms or Greyhawk. I've also never seen a way you could imbue a golem with "human" intelligence.

Its got Shifters and Changelings? Greyhawk and FR have plenty of Lycanthropes, Doppelgangers and Wild-shapers...

But you can't take them as a base race or class in those world's and GH and FR aren't designed for a character of that type to be easily playable. It could be done, but it was a stretch.

The point is, Eberron does ALL of these things. Sure, before Eberron, you could do these sorts of things by making up new rules or changing settings, but Eberron makes it possible in one consistant setting with the rules built in from the ground up. That's what makes it stand out.

I just can't see them mish-mashing every genre together and having it be any more internally self-consistent than what they did with the various "non-core" FR areas...

But from everything I've read, it looks like they pulled it off. That's why I'm interested. We have to all admit, FR and Greyhawk didn't have consistancy with the rules set as a big priority.