D&D 5E Eight Abilities (Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis)

Even better no ability score! just use the actual proficiency bonus, whether you are proficient and use no bonus 0, when you are not proficient.
I jury rigged a variant for 5e without ability scores and posted it somewhere on the forum..

From memory you just double your proficiency bonus. Expertise adds +2 to a skill. The math is a bit underpowered vs base but it's pretty close.

Not terribly exciting for some people though, although if you reworked the feats and gave them out more frequently you'd have plenty of capacity for customisation.
 

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@Yaarel i havent followed this thread very closely. How do you handle the pairings of attributes and skills?

Skills are interesting to me in 5e as they strike me as one of the most modular components of 5e. Changing abilities has effects on various class abilities and can make modifying them difficult where as skills often can be changed with little to no impact on other rules in the game.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
@Yaarel i havent followed this thread very closely. How do you handle the pairings of attributes and skills?

Skills are interesting to me in 5e as they strike me as one of the most modular components of 5e. Changing abilities has effects on various class abilities and can make modifying them difficult where as skills often can be changed with little to no impact on other rules in the game.
Skills are important in our games to adjudicate narrative scenarios. Many ideas to successfully overcome challenges never reach combat.

The abilities are important because they are aptitudes. Each is a cluster of skills that a character will tend to be good at generally, even if without training. I prefer to call them "aptitudes" and "aptitude scores", rather than "abilities". They are exactly an aptitude, whereas an ability can vaguely mean anything. To improve an aptitude while leveling is something like cross-training, getting better at a flexible cluster of skills generally, in a way that is more adaptable for new challenges.

Normally, we use aptitude checks, and players can choose to add whichever skill seems to make sense in the challenge. (The DM decides if a skill can apply. But the players are thoughtful and reasonable. There is rarely a disagreement between player and DM, unless there is a misunderstanding about the nature of the challenge, which clears up easily.

So it will be easy for us to use either four aptitudes, six aptitudes, or eight aptitudes. Whichever aptitude best applies to the challenge is the one used for the check. Players can choose whatever skill seems relevant and add its bonus to the check.

Of course, players prefer to choose a skill with a higher bonus. But this is the skill that the character is good at, and can use more resourcefully. So this tendency is working as intended. It deepens the flavor of the character, when a player describes how the skill applies. The only question is if the skill genuinely applies to the challenge. Again, the players tend to be fair and honest.

Tools are skills. Tools expand the list of possible skills. The skills proper tend to be a general theoretical knowledge. Tools tend to be a specialized applied knowledge. Compare the difference between Deception (Intelligence for fraud, Perception for replica, or Charisma for acting) versus the Disguise Kit. Where Deception proficiency can be used for a variety of applications generally, the Disguise Kit proficiency relates to anything and everything relevant to creating or using a Disguise Kit specifically. For example, one could use the Disguise Kit proficiency to mix chemicals to create a substance suitable for altering the features of the face convincingly, while the Deception skill could not be used to create this. Oppositely, one could use Deception to deceive a leader about some political affair, but could not use the Disguise Kit to do this.

Note, my character sheet organizes the skills proper into Physical skills, Social skills, Knowledge skills, Magic skills, and Tool skills. The Magic skills are Arcana, Nature, and Religion. Earlier Religion felt redundant because History (culture) and Arcana (spells, planes) are more useful and replace it. Meanwhile Survival is more useful and replaces Nature. For this reason, I have been rethinking these skills.

• Arcana ≈ Ethereal Plane, Feywild, Shadowfell, magical force, telekinesis, force constructs.
• Nature ≈ Elemental Planes, elements, plants, elemental magic, alchemy, chemistry, physics, animism, wilderness, cosmos
• Religion ≈ Astral Plane, Celestial/Fiend, thoughts, dreams, symbols, languages, worldviews, meaning

Nature applies to Plant as a kind of element, but not to animals. Animal Handling normally applies to nonmagical challenges, but also applies to various magical challenges. For example, it can recognize that an animal is actually a wildshaped Druid and facilitate "eye-of-newt"-style potions that transfer creature properties.

These three plus one skills turn out to be a great way to divide up magic, thematically. Each skill is useful. Nature turns out to be highly useful. Even Religion becomes necessary for many planar campaigns.



It seems to me, 5e somewhat stumbled into the concept of tool proficiencies accidentally. But because of its specialization and crafting applications, flexibility and verisimilitude, tools make 5e the best edition for skills so far.
 
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There have been other Attributes published by TSR or WotC:

Comeliness in AD&D1.5E

Perception in Dragon #133, p12 Notice Anything Different? by Thomas Ruddick

2E Skills & Powers split each attribute into two sub-attributes.

STR: Stamina & Muscle
DEX: Aim & Balance
CON: Health & Fitness
INT: Reason & Knowledge
WIS: Intuition & Will
CHA: Leadership & Appearance

***

Also, Tom Moldvay's home campaign had Luck as an Attribute.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
There have been other Attributes published by TSR or WotC:

Comeliness in AD&D1.5E

Perception in Dragon #133, p12 Notice Anything Different? by Thomas Ruddick

2E Skills & Powers split each attribute into two sub-attributes.

STR: Stamina & Muscle
DEX: Aim & Balance
CON: Health & Fitness
INT: Reason & Knowledge
WIS: Intuition & Will
CHA: Leadership & Appearance

***

Also, Tom Moldvay's home campaign had Luck as an Attribute.
The traditional six dont work well. In practice, their meanings are too vague and overlapping. Also, they are brokenly imbalanced compared to each other.
 


Yaarel

He Mage
These particular four and eight help because their definitions are mutually exclusive without overlap, so it is obvious when to use which.

Also these four and eight balance well against each other, and are roughly equally useful mechanically, and equally desirable for gameplay.

In fact these eight are the traditional with clarification to accommodate the two new abilities, Perception and Athletics, which experienced D&D players are familiar with and understand why these two work well as abilities.

These eight are traditional D&D, in a way that works elegantly for a modern gaming engine.
 
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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
These particular four and eight help because their definitions are mutually exclusive without overlap, so it is obvious when to use which.

Also these four and eight balance well against each other, and are roughly equally useful mechanically, and equally desirable for gameplay.

In fact these eight are the traditional with clarification to accommodate the two new abilities, Perception and Athletics, which experienced D&D players are familiar with and understand why these two work well as abilities.

These eight are traditional D&D, in a way that works elegantly for a modern gaming engine.
I mean...

That's all pretty to say? But until you rewrite 5e around those 8 attributes rather than the 6 that exist, and balance out each attribute against the others in utility, it's just pretty words.

It also does nothing to reduce the question of intelligence/wisdom differences, and adds in the question "Isn't athletics just a function of str, dex, and con working together?"

You could certainly define them as to have no overlap. But people being people will have their own definitions, walking into the game, and expectations thereof. It doesn't actually clear things up at all, really. Just makes two Skills into Attributes.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Back in college in the 90s, I wrote my own game system (which should come as absolutely no shock to anyone else who was in college in the 90s). I called it "QuestMaster" and it had three divisions of characteristics: Body (BD), Mind (MD), and Spirit (SP). Each of those groupings had three characteristics in it: one represented how resistant you were to that type of thing, one to how powerful you were to that type of thing, and one to reflect your facility with manipulating that type of thing. At the time, I was of the opinion that Spirit would guide how others saw you, and include things like Charisma. BD had: CONstitution (for resistance), STRength (for power), and DEXterity (for facility). MD had: REServe (for resistance), WillPower (for power), and INTelligence (for facility). And SP had: ELAN (for resistance), CHArisma (for power), and GUIle (for facility). I thought those worked pretty well at the time, but as time goes by I think I should have called the Spirit grouping the Social grouping, and made magic-specific Spirit characteristics: maybe WARD (for resistance), MANa (for power), and ARCane (for facility).

If it helps to understand my thought process, I'm an engineer, and the engineering thought process of breaking things down into discrete, measurable units can invade every aspect of your gaming if you let it. :)
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I think attributes should be around what kind of fictional character more than anything.

So for 4:

Brawn
Agility
Knowledge
Fate

Add in proficiency in skills and you can describe most of the D&D archetypes here.

Fate subsumes Charisma and some Wisdom, and adds in a bunch of extra baggage it isn't hard to hang mechanics on. (Ie, it isn't hard to justify HP or death saving throws coming from Fate.)

Knowledge is Intelligence and Wisdom, mediated by proficiency in different skills.

Agility is Dexterity, and some Strength.

Brawn is Constitution and most Strength.

Brawn: All Strength+Constitution unless mentioned otherwise. Only adds to HP on odd levels.

Agility: All Dexterity, and for non-Heavy weapons can be used for your weapon attack (but not damage). Also used for some athletics stuff, like jumping distance and climb checks (agility also covers strength:mass ratio).

Knowledge: Almost every Wisdom and Intelligence skill. Many Wisdom saves. Casting attribute of EKs, Artificers, Warlocks, Wizards, Rangers and Druids.

Fate: Charisma saves, and many Wisdom saves. Death saving throws. Adds to HP on even levels. Other luck mechanics. "Casting" attribute of ATs, Monks, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and Paladins.
 

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