D&D 5E Eight Abilities (Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis)

[Yaarel]

I mean...

That's all pretty to say? But until you rewrite 5e around those 8 attributes rather than the 6 that exist, and balance out each attribute against the others in utility, it's just pretty words.

The player facing rules make eight abilities easy to do.

On the DM side, tweaking monster statblocks needs done but might be automatable.

It also does nothing to reduce the question of intelligence/wisdom differences

Intelligence and Wisdom are witjout overlap:

Intelligence is knowledge checks. Wisdom is willpower checks and emotional sanity. Zero ambiguity.

, and adds in the question "Isn't athletics just a function of str, dex, and con working together?"

Athletics as a separate ability solves many questions:

Why can I jump but not land?
How can I climb but not balance?
What about a huge brute who lumbers?
What about a small rabbit who is weak but athletic?
And other awkward implications from the six.
Nevermind the unreasonable opportunity costs to invest in MADness just be a swashbuckling character concept.

You could certainly define them as to have no overlap.

Easy to define no overlap when Perception and Athletics are separate abilities.

But people being people will have their own definitions, walking into the game, and expectations thereof.

Everyone who read this thread understands clearly how these eight abilities work.

It doesn't actually clear things up at all, really. Just makes two Skills into Attributes.

To the contrary.

 

[Mythos Enthusiast]

The inestimable, but clunky, RPG Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura had 8 split evenly between 'physical' and 'mental', (they were paired together/contrasted conceptually).

Strength - Intelligence (Power?)
Constitution - Willpower (Toughness?)
Dexterity - Perception (Acuity/Articulation/Intentionality? Probably the loosest pair)
Beauty - Charisma (Appeal)

 

[Steampunkette]

The player facing rules make eight abilities easy to do.

On the DM side, tweaking monster statblocks needs done but might be automatable.

... this is not an answer. This is just more pretty words.

What is an Athletics Saving Throw and how does it compare to a Str/Dex/Con save? Is it more common than any? Less common? How are the various abilities and spells divided among these four stats? Are there an equal number of Perception Saves as there are Dex Saves? If not, how are these abilities balanced against each other?

Without going through the -entire- system and reassigning functions to each ability you're just spouting pretty words.

Intelligence and Wisdom are witjout overlap:

Intelligence is knowledge checks. Wisdom is willpower checks and emotional sanity. Zero ambiguity.

You know that. I know that. But how many new players ask that question? Zero Ambiguity for -you-. Not for others.

Athletics as a separate ability solves many questions:

Why can I jump but not land?
How can I climb but not balance?
What about a huge brute who lumbers?
What about a small rabbit who is weak but athletic?
And other awkward implications from the six.
Nevermind the unreasonable opportunity costs to invest in MADness just be a swashbuckling character concept.

Uh huh. Again: Pretty words. Thematic descriptions, but it doesn't answer the actual question. but I am glad you brought up MADness and Swashbucklers!

Does that mean a Swashbuckler has no need of Str/Dex/Con and can just focus on Athletics? Or does Con still give them hit points while Dex gives AC bonus they'll need in their light armor?

Easy to define no overlap when Perception and Athletics are separate abilities.

I was referring to Intelligence and Wisdom, as well as all the other stats. Not -just- Athletics/Perception.

Everyone who read this thread understands clearly how these eight abilities work.

Really? 'Cause I've read this thread and don't. I don't understand how you intend to completely revamp a 6 attribute game around 8 attributes and make them all equally valuable. Which is the claim you made. And I also don't know how declaring that everyone will automatically and intuitively understand the differences will somehow magically make it so.

To the contrary.

"Nuh huh!" Is not an answer.

 

[Yaarel]

What is an Athletics Saving Throw

Athletics save = dodge / reflex

and how does it compare to a Str/Dex/Con save? Is it more common than any? Less common?

The main saves are the second of each pairing.

Constitution = hardiness / fortitude
Athletics = dodge / reflex
Perception = save versus hide / illusion
Wisdom = sanity / will

but I am glad you brought up MADness and Swashbucklers!

Does that mean a Swashbuckler has no need of Str/Dex/Con and can just focus on Athletics?

Yes. To do swashbuckling stunts, one need only invest in Athletics.

Str, Dex, Con offer other things that are nice but not required.

Or does Con still give them hit points while Dex gives AC bonus they'll need in their light armor?

Athletics by its dodging grants the AC bonus, not Dex.

Con works as is.

Str hits hard, throws, carries, brute-forces.

Dex finesses, shoots aiming weapons, stealth, sleight of hand. Still the go-to for Rogue.

I was referring to Intelligence and Wisdom, as well as all the other stats. Not -just- Athletics/Perception.

The mental stats disambiguate as well.

Spellcasters can use the same casting ability. A future option might use Perception as a casting ability.

Meanwhile, each mental ability has something to offer. Intelligence is any knowledge check. Charisma is any social skills check.

 

[Parmandur]

Breaks the "Rule of 7" principle in design: 8 is too many factors to keep in mind.

 

[Yaarel]

Breaks the "Rule of 7" principle in design: 8 is too many factors to keep in mind.

It is four pairs. Memorable.

 

[Joshy]

Adding Agility to the base six has worked well for me in past. Agility takes over AC and initiative from Dexterity and it modifies base movement speed.

My favorite for any game has been:
Physique

• Strength
• Constitution

Deft

• Dexterity
• Agility

Mind

• Memory
• Acuity

Soul

• Intuition/Instinct
• Charisma

Edit: Had Intuition instead of Instinct. I guess it is close to the same thing. So I'm not sure which fits better.

 

[Yaarel]

Adding Agility to the base six has worked well for me in past. Agility takes over AC and initiative from Dexterity and it modifies base movement speed.

My favorite for any game has been:
Physique

• Strength
• Constitution

Deft

• Dexterity
• Agility

Mind

• Memory
• Acuity

Soul

• Intuition
• Charisma

I refer to this kind of structure as a "foursome".

In my experience, when deciding on the design for an ability, it is vital to design it from the ground up. What are the mechanics that actually happen frequently during gameplay? For example, players can roll attack rolls frequently, so an ability that grants its bonus to attack rolls is likely to be a valuable ability in frequent use. Heh, by contrast, how many times does a character mak Acuity rolls during each encounter?

The thing about Knowledge checks, the character either knows some fact or doesnt. It doesnt matter if the character knows it from an education system, informal self-teaching, overhearing it from a recent conversation, logical deduction, gut instinct, scientific intuition, mystical intuition, educated guess, library research, or any other method of discernment. For this practical reason, the original post uses the Intelligence ability for ANY Knowledge check. Incidentally, the Investigation skill includes "intuition" and other methods to discern the correct information.

When the Intelligence becomes the ability that is responsible for any knowledge check, it meaningfully disambiguates from the other abilities, and becomes a valuable anility in its own right.

 

[Yaarel]

I sometimes refer to the "foursome" structure as TASK. Each letter of the acronym describes a salient character concept.

Tough

• Strength
• Constitution

Agile

• Dexterity
• Athletics

Social

• Charisma
• Wisdom

Knowing

• Intelligence
• Perception

 

[Joshy]

I refer to this kind of structure as a "foursome".

In my experience, when deciding on the design for an ability, it is vital to design it from the ground up. What are the mechanics that actually happen frequently during gameplay? For example, players can roll attack rolls frequently, so an ability that grants its bonus to attack rolls is likely to be a valuable ability in frequent use. Heh, by contrast, how many times does a character mak Acuity rolls during each encounter?

The thing about Knowledge checks, the character either knows some fact or doesnt. It doesnt matter if the character knows it from an education system, informal self-teaching, overhearing it from a recent conversation, logical deduction, gut instinct, scientific intuition, mystical intuition, educated guess, library research, or any other method of discernment. For this practical reason, the original post uses the Intelligence ability for ANY Knowledge check. Incidentally, the Investigation skill includes "intuition" and other methods to discern the correct information.

When the Intelligence becomes the ability that is responsible for any knowledge check, it meaningfully disambiguates from the other abilities, and becomes a valuable anility in its own right.

Acuity was for arcane spells dc and to-hit because it allowed the caster to think faster, basically anyways. It was also one of the options for initiative.

Memory was akin to knowledge but also prepared spells. Also flat memory checks to recall important in game information or to spot incongruities.(Chance for DM's to give hints to something the party missed but was suppose to be obvious)

The stats are a form of hierarchy:
Self = Body + Ego
Body = Physique + Deft
Ego = Mind + Soul