Elves and Secret Doors.. how do you pull it off?

Actually I probably don't know. I don't memorize every racial ability, I don't memorize every character sheet, and I have no problem with a player reminding me that they have a particular ability.



Sure, but I, as DM, don't memorize ever element of every player, I often have 5+ at my table. If the elf wants to "remind" me about his ability by saying "my elf senses give me a good feeling about finding a secret door in this room" or something to that effect, I will then actively keep it in mind.


Also, THIS. Rules that force the DM to run a certain aspect of the player are bad rules. I have no problem houseruling them to make my life easier.



Because they are applied differently. They don't consume game-time, they don't cause things to slow down to a crawl until the elf has searched every 5-foot square of the room and so on and so forth.

You realise that you forcing your player to ask to sense secret doors all the time is what would consume more game time right? If you know he has the ability then you only need to roll once when you know there is a secret door he might find. That's hardly slowing the game down.

Elves being able to sense secret doors has been around since the beginning of D&D. If you're new to D&D I can understand not knowing that. In which case, tell your players, "Hey, I don't know your characters that well, if you have any abilities that I need to roll for secretly, just give me a reminder every so often so that I don't forget to check for them.

After a few sessions of being reminded I'd soon start to remember myself that, if there are any secret doors, I need to check if the elf finds them. Heck, if you're that forgetful of it, when you are designing the adventure (or reading it through in the case of a pre-written adventure) and you come across a secret door, roll for it and simply make a note if the PC noticed the door or not. That way you don't even have to think about it during the session.

Personally, if I knew my DM wasn't checking to see if I spotted secret doors, I'd remind him (politely) of my ability. If he told me that it wasn't something he was going to automatically check for and said that I'd have to ask to use it, I'd start to start to constantly search for secret doors.
 

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You realise that you forcing your player to ask to sense secret doors all the time is what would consume more game time right? If you know he has the ability then you only need to roll once when you know there is a secret door he might find. That's hardly slowing the game down.
By that logic we could say that asking the player to take any action slows the game down. I care less about speed and more about the DM burden, speed only becomes an issue when the player starts becoming absurd about it.

Elves being able to sense secret doors has been around since the beginning of D&D. If you're new to D&D I can understand not knowing that. In which case, tell your players, "Hey, I don't know your characters that well, if you have any abilities that I need to roll for secretly, just give me a reminder every so often so that I don't forget to check for them.
I ask my players to tell me that in regards to anything they feel is important. Which is part of my point. If a player doesn't consider locating secret doors to be an important thing to do, I feel it's up to THEM to make that decision, not me. And no, just because they don't utilize a certain aspect of the race does not mean they should reroll. I have one particular friend who LOVES elves, always plays elves, she has a thing for elves. She doesn't care about secret doors, she just wants to play an elf. I think it's fair that the player should be making the determination on what aspects of race or class or anything at all about their character to emphasize or downplay. Heck, when I play a ranger I don't cast spells and don't use a pet, because I enjoy neither, but I like the archer concept.

After a few sessions of being reminded I'd soon start to remember myself that, if there are any secret doors, I need to check if the elf finds them. Heck, if you're that forgetful of it, when you are designing the adventure (or reading it through in the case of a pre-written adventure) and you come across a secret door, roll for it and simply make a note if the PC noticed the door or not. That way you don't even have to think about it during the session.
It's not a matter of forgetfulness. It's a matter of priorities. If there's a "secret door" that is of any value to the party, I will set a DC appropriate to how hard it is to locate after having said something like "You have chased the goblins into a dead end, there is seemingly no way to get out." And then let the players decide how they want to investigate further. I had one half-giant with an oversized hammer whose solution to hidden doors was the "hit it" method.

Personally, if I knew my DM wasn't checking to see if I spotted secret doors, I'd remind him (politely) of my ability. If he told me that it wasn't something he was going to automatically check for and said that I'd have to ask to use it, I'd start to start to constantly search for secret doors.
I expect my players to be reasonable folk. As such, if you feel it is reasonable to suspect a secret door within your elven proximity, by all means, roll for it. I'm not a big fan of asking the DM to be able to do stuff a character can do, but I'm even less of a fan of doing it for them. I'd much rather my player take the inititive and say "My elven senses are tingling, this hallway feels odd, I'm making a secret door check." To which I'd go "okay", check the map for secret doors near them, and then see how they roll.

All I'm getting at is that I do not like aspects of the game that push what I see as player choice (choosing to play an elf) and player burden (checking for hidden doors) and turn it into DM burden.
 

I'm not saying that the rule text isn't poorly written, or that I don't much prefer 4e's take on elves. (I do!) But I stick by my theory. I mean, early editions are notorious for poorly-explained rules. Thief skills much? ;)

That's a good point. I remember reading the initiative rules in the 1st Ed DMG very carefully three times, and still came away none the wiser as to how it was actually supposed to work. :)
 

Actually I probably don't know. I don't memorize every racial ability, I don't memorize every character sheet, and I have no problem with a player reminding me that they have a particular ability.

Sure, but I, as DM, don't memorize ever element of every player, I often have 5+ at my table. If the elf wants to "remind" me about his ability by saying "my elf senses give me a good feeling about finding a secret door in this room" or something to that effect, I will then actively keep it in mind.

You realise that you forcing your player to ask to sense secret doors all the time is what would consume more game time right? If you know he has the ability then you only need to roll once when you know there is a secret door he might find. That's hardly slowing the game down.

Olaf nails it, to me. This isn't that hard. But if you are going to place the burden on the player, then I think it is reasonable for the player to remind you whenever the Elf is in position to see a secret door, not just when he has (in your opinion) a good reason to believe a secret door is there.

This doesn't have to consume huge amounts of game time. If the Elf player notes when we leave the room that, as always, the Elf is alert foir secret doors in the passages they traverse, and comments in each and every room that, in the course of searching the room, the Elf will circle the exterior within 5' of the walls, where he will have a chance to notice any secret doors, then you have your reminder and he has his ability. If this is becoming frustrating tio the GM, the answer is to remember that elves can see secret doors without conscious effort, and tell the player you are aware of the ability and rolling the checks. Of course, then you have to do so.

Personally, if I knew my DM wasn't checking to see if I spotted secret doors, I'd remind him (politely) of my ability. If he told me that it wasn't something he was going to automatically check for and said that I'd have to ask to use it, I'd start to start to constantly search for secret doors.

As another player in the group, I might start adding reminders myself. "I wonder if the Elf sees any hidden doors". "If only we had a character who could detect secret doors (or evil, or magic, or what have you for various characters).

By that logic we could say that asking the player to take any action slows the game down. I care less about speed and more about the DM burden, speed only becomes an issue when the player starts becoming absurd about it.

At what point is it "absurd"? The elf has the constant ability to notice secret doors. Either that means you remember that ability and roll for it, or the player is justified in reminding you of this ability whereever it may be relevant. That means everwhere there are walls, not just when a fleeing opponent has mysteriously vanished in a dead end.

It's not a matter of forgetfulness. It's a matter of priorities. If there's a "secret door" that is of any value to the party, I will set a DC appropriate to how hard it is to locate after having said something like "You have chased the goblins into a dead end, there is seemingly no way to get out." And then let the players decide how they want to investigate further. I had one half-giant with an oversized hammer whose solution to hidden doors was the "hit it" method.

So do I have to TELL you I am using my Listen skill in case there is an invisible assassin skulking in our midst, or do I get an automatic roll for a passive ability? Because the Elf's ability to see a secret door is just as passive as the human ability to hear someone moving about, or spot something shiny in a haystack. "I use my Spot skill - I rolled a 5". "OK, you see that there is a town 30 yards ahead. Good thing you rolled - you would have walked right into the town walls." If my character can read Draconic, then I shouold be able to read it without switching my skill on. If he has knowledge of the local area, he should not have to chant a mantra to activate his memory that the person we just met is the local blacksmith, or the daughter of the mayor.

Ideally, the GM would remember those abilities, but the world is not ideal. Given this, I would expect players not to be annoyed they must sometimes remind the GM, especially of abilities that don't come up all that often. But I would also expect the GM to acknowledge that those reminders are reasonable, nit "imposing a burden" or "wasting game time". And I would also expect the GM to attempt to make amends where an ability is overlooked, not say "well you just didn't think about whether she might be the mayor's daughter for the past few hours".

I expect my players to be reasonable folk. As such, if you feel it is reasonable to suspect a secret door within your elven proximity, by all means, roll for it. I'm not a big fan of asking the DM to be able to do stuff a character can do, but I'm even less of a fan of doing it for them. I'd much rather my player take the inititive and say "My elven senses are tingling, this hallway feels odd, I'm making a secret door check." To which I'd go "okay", check the map for secret doors near them, and then see how they roll.

I expect my GM to be reasonable too. As such, if my character has a opassive ability, I expect it to work passively, whether by the GM remembering it or by him accepting that constant reminders are made necessary if he finds it too great a burden to remember. It's not practical to expect the GM to ask "does anyone have the ability to detect secret doors" whenever we pass one. It is practical for him to ask whether anyone reads Draconic, or what languages everyone can read, or what everyone's local knowledge skills are. Most GM's I've gamed with recognize when certain abilities are likely to come up near term, and get that info from character sheets in advance. Some track a lot more info, and others don't track much. Those that track little accept that there will be a lot more reminders in the game session.
 
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As a DM: I just ask for the search check from the elf. The people I play with are pretty good about meta-gaming.

As a Player: Pick the elf up and rub him against the wall. When his ears perk up, we've found something.
 

I always have the sheet of every PC in my game at hand (why wouldn't I, it's a trivial matter), so their modifiers, as well as other stats are always known to me when I need them.
I assume the PCs are taking 10 on passive checks. If the DC is higher than that, I make a roll in secret.
If a PC has reason to believe there's a secret door in a room and he's checking it, but there's no secret door, I just straight up tell the player that he didn't found anything. If there is a secret door, I roll in secret and inform the player of the outcome ("You found it" or "You found nothing").
I ignore the 5 ft. limit if the room isn't too big.
 

I expect my GM to be reasonable too. As such, if my character has a opassive ability, I expect it to work passively, whether by the GM remembering it or by him accepting that constant reminders are made necessary if he finds it too great a burden to remember. It's not practical to expect the GM to ask "does anyone have the ability to detect secret doors" whenever we pass one. It is practical for him to ask whether anyone reads Draconic, or what languages everyone can read, or what everyone's local knowledge skills are. Most GM's I've gamed with recognize when certain abilities are likely to come up near term, and get that info from character sheets in advance. Some track a lot more info, and others don't track much. Those that track little accept that there will be a lot more reminders in the game session.

As I already said, I don't mind reminders because I don't have your character sheets within reach nor did I memorize them. If you want to "remind" me that your character speaks Draconic by saying "Hey, I can read Draconic!" by all means start reading. I don't track very much information in my game, I've got my hands full on my end. If it's on your sheet, it's your responsibility. That's just how I run games.
 



Strictly speaking, for me the elf ability to notice secret doors is something that must be taken into account on the DM side just as much as the dwarf ability to notice unusual stonework. It is a passive ability that is always on and thus it is the DM's job to react to it, not the player's job to constantly remind the DM about it. Since the DM is always going to know where secret doors are it should be quite trivial to keep track of. Is there an elf in the party with that ability? Yes? Then all secret doors (s)he passes within 5 feet of are going to be rolled for. That's how the rule goes.

And no, that does not give other abilities a free leave for the DM to be the one who takes care of it. Only when the abilities actually make the most sense for that should it be the case. In this case it's a passive ability on part of the character to interact with things the DM sets out, thus it's up to the DM to react to them.

Likewise, I would assume only the relevant secret doors are going to be rolled for. Sure, there might be several secret doors in a city, but if those doors aren't going to lead into something to further the campaign along or at least make for something interesting then there's barely any point in acknowledging their existence much less bothering with any rolls about them.

As a DM, ask yourself if these doors are going to be a big deal in the game. If they are then ask whether you actually want elves (or anyone) to have those free search checks. Heck, ask that question even if doors aren't going to be a big deal. Presumably the rule was added in to actually be used and relevant, so if it isn't then taking it away and providing some other ability as compensation might be in order.\

Likewise, ask the player if they care about the secret doors thing. If they don't then houserule the ability away and put in something equally-powered but relevant to the player.

Personally, I don't understand why some DMs don't seem to have players tell them exactly what their character is and what relevant abilities they have and then make notes on that. Got an elf in your party? Make a note about the free search checks! Same for dwarves and their stonecunning. You don't have to memorize every racial ability ever, but if you don't know what your players and their characters are generally capable of then you're likely going to have issues DMing.
 
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