D&D 5E Epic Level 1?!

[Dioltach]

I do this in our occasional taking-a-break-from-the-regular-superpowered-campaign sessions: the whole party is made up of 1st-level halflings, and always will be. Every other adventure or so I'll give them a small boon: extra hitpoints, or a minor magic item, or a bonus on a save. But all in all it's very down-to-earth, small heroes overcoming small challenges.

And we always have a blast. People get creative when they're the littlest creatures in a dangerous world.

 

[overgeeked]

Personally, I feel like the weirdness comes from the fact that there are so many forms of progression that don’t really require levels.

Equipment, traits, the fact that DMs can just adjust encounters to make them easier or harder,…

It definitely lessens the “impact” of levels.

It doesn’t help that your party members will typically all be at the same level all the time.

It's really odd how hyper-focused people are on pure numbers, as if nothing else matters in the game. But that could be me. I'm far more interested in the fiction of the game world more than the numbers that are simply abstractions of the game world.

Imagine a goblin warren filled with CR 1 goblins that the PCs can go to at level 1.

So there are "on-level threats". Okay.

If the PCs go there at level 3, but the goblins are still CR 1, there's not really a treadmill.

And there are "below-level threats". Okay.

The PCs might be more inclined to seek out CR 3 monsters, because those offer better treasure and XP, but that's their choice, not a treadmill.

And there is an incentive to face on-level threats more often than below-level threats. Okay.

The point is that the on-level threats are always advancing...almost exactly as the PCs are. That's the treadmill. The bigger numbers of the PCs are matched by the bigger numbers of the monsters. Hence it's a treadmill. You numbers go up, their numbers go up. The only difference is what you call the on-level threats. They go from goblin to orc to hobgoblin to ogre to giant...but they're all...mysteriously...about the same difficulty. The numbers involved are just inflated when you compare the goblins to the giants.

It's like claiming that Dr House and Dr Steven Strange are no different from Dr Interns J.D. and Turk (Scrubs, S1E1). I mean, sure, they're all doctors whose job it is to treat patients, but that's a very reductionist argument. Clearly, when you look more closely, the former are two of the best doctors in the world, while the latter two are completely inexperienced. The Interns taking on a House or Strange case would almost certainly end in disaster.

But, the important part to remember is that each, within their own stories, still face obstacles that are either just at the level of their competence or obstacles that are just beyond their level of competence...and the story is about them overcoming those obstacles regardless. Rising to meet the challenge as it were. You basically never see House tackling a JD and Turk level problem unless it's part of a cold open or a passing bit of dialogue...because it's beneath them. And you certainly wouldn't have Doctor Strange handling a House or JD and Turk problem. Like you wouldn't have a 20th-level party facing off against a few goblins in D&D...it just isn't something worth busting out the full combat rules for. It's a bit of dialogue from the DM at best.

Part of the trick is understanding that you don't need hard numbers to represent that. The DM can simply say "these monsters are beneath your notice" and not have anyone bother with dice.

One the other hand, if they go to the warrens at level 3 and the goblins are CR 3, there's some argument to be made for a treadmill.

More that they'll constantly push for facing on-level threats, because that's where the incentives are...so it's still a treadmill.

But even that fundamentally ignores higher level abilities that can and do significantly alter gameplay. For example, the level 3 Wizard might cast Invisibility on the Rogue, making it easy for the Rogue to scout the warrens. The level 1 party simply doesn't have that option.

And the on-level threats have equally impressive abilities they can use...just like the PCs have.

LOL mostly I agree, but there is a bit more to it than that.

At high levels, weaker monsters can still pose a threat in sufficient numbers, but at lower levels those more powerful monsters will just kill you more quickly...

Yeah. That's true. Doesn't change what I said in any significant way though. You don't need hard numbers to accomplish the same thing. "You are so beyond this monster that you can just describe killing them by the dozen" is far more elegant than dozens of pages of pointless stats. Likewise, "this monster is so beyond you that it can simply kill you by the dozen...run" is far more elegant than dozens of pages of pointless stats.

 

[Stalker0]

So essentially the idea is you take the idea of Epic Level 6 but you stay a similar level of power to a level 1 PC. However you still level up, instead of the power creep race you just get more options and variety as you attain more class levels and access to additional features. It would require scaling down the magnitude of various aspects of the game. Rather than just upgrades, its a game of sidegrades and utility. Its about the right tool for the right job.

Probably need some examples of what you are looking for. Is this just the same as a leveled character, but you have 1st level hitpoints and your proficiency bonus is always +2?

If you still gain levels, than I don't see how this is like epic 6.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That really depends on play style.

yes it does.

Imagine a goblin warren filled with CR 1 goblins that the PCs can go to at level 1.

If the PCs go there at level 3, but the goblins are still CR 1, there's not really a treadmill. The PCs might be more inclined to seek out CR 3 monsters, because those offer better treasure and XP, but that's their choice, not a treadmill.

yes and no. level 1 and 3 that seems easy. if you went at level 14 would your DM even want to run the great goblin massacure? would it be anything but a foot note, maybe a single spell if you have the right one?

for the most part I find even DMs that have open world have guide bars. Yeah you hear stories of dumb players ignoring the information and stumbling into the CR27 dragon layer at level 5 and getting killed for it (or better yet through quick thinking and RP making an alliance) but I find few games were that is the likely outcome. even in an open world you have low level threats for low level adventurers.

It's like claiming that Dr House and Dr Steven Strange are no different from Dr Interns J.D. and Turk (Scrubs, S1E1). I mean, sure, they're all doctors whose job it is to treat patients, but that's a very reductionist argument. Clearly, when you look more closely, the former are two of the best doctors in the world, while the latter two are completely inexperienced. The Interns taking on a House or Strange case would almost certainly end in disaster.

I am taking strange out because it will muddy the discussion, but if a patient shows up with an unknown illness Dr House in story SHOULD be more likely to find the cure... but JD and Turk do as often. See thats the thing very rarely does someone show up on house AND of Scrubs. but if they DID, I would bet on Scrubs being more likely (although not guaranteed) to have a happy ending.

One the other hand, if they go to the warrens at level 3 and the goblins are CR 3, there's some argument to be made for a treadmill.

that depends... did the DM ONLY change it to make it fun and exciting... yeah it's a treadmill. but if he upped it becuse over the last 6 months when you went from 1st to 3rd the goblins have gotten more orginized and trained (with a rocky balboa montoge) it is just a living world

 

[Jer]

for the most part I find even DMs that have open world have guide bars. Yeah you hear stories of dumb players ignoring the information and stumbling into the CR27 dragon layer at level 5 and getting killed for it (or better yet through quick thinking and RP making an alliance) but I find few games were that is the likely outcome. even in an open world you have low level threats for low level adventurers.

What's funny is you never hear stories of the opposite - level 10 PCs wandering into a kobold lair and just slaughtering everything in their path or having the kobolds worship them as gods or something.

In fact when I hear stories like that I tend to hear "Tucker's Kobolds" type stories where the CR 1/4 creatures turn out to be a threat to the 10th level party despite what anyone might think.

Now it may just be that those stories are boring and make the players look bad - the PCs showed up and indiscriminately slaughtered the kobolds with a fireball and then danced in the ashes sort of thing. But any open world game I've played in has definitely had "guide bars" to point us at interesting things to explore - you might hear rumors of a dragon that is far beyond your power to fight at 1st level, but I can't recall the rumor table ever showing up with "and there's a nest of goblins outside of town that's causing trouble" at 6th level. A goblin army ready to invade maybe, but not the nest of bandits that might be interesting for a group of 3rd level characters to go off and fight.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It's really odd how hyper-focused people are on pure numbers, as if nothing else matters in the game. But that could be me. I'm far more interested in the fiction of the game world more than the numbers that are simply abstractions of the game world.

So there are "on-level threats". Okay.

And there are "below-level threats". Okay.

And there is an incentive to face on-level threats more often than below-level threats. Okay.

The point is that the on-level threats are always advancing...almost exactly as the PCs are. That's the treadmill. The bigger numbers of the PCs are matched by the bigger numbers of the monsters. Hence it's a treadmill. You numbers go up, their numbers go up. The only difference is what you call the on-level threats. They go from goblin to orc to hobgoblin to ogre to giant...but they're all...mysteriously...about the same difficulty. The numbers involved are just inflated when you compare the goblins to the giants.

But, the important part to remember is that each, within their own stories, still face obstacles that are either just at the level of their competence or obstacles that are just beyond their level of competence...and the story is about them overcoming those obstacles regardless. Rising to meet the challenge as it were. You basically never see House tackling a JD and Turk level problem unless it's part of a cold open or a passing bit of dialogue...because it's beneath them. And you certainly wouldn't have Doctor Strange handling a House or JD and Turk problem. Like you wouldn't have a 20th-level party facing off against a few goblins in D&D...it just isn't something worth busting out the full combat rules for. It's a bit of dialogue from the DM at best.

Part of the trick is understanding that you don't need hard numbers to represent that. The DM can simply say "these monsters are beneath your notice" and not have anyone bother with dice.

More that they'll constantly push for facing on-level threats, because that's where the incentives are...so it's still a treadmill.

And the on-level threats have equally impressive abilities they can use...just like the PCs have.

Yeah. That's true. Doesn't change what I said in any significant way though. You don't need hard numbers to accomplish the same thing. "You are so beyond this monster that you can just describe killing them by the dozen" is far more elegant than dozens of pages of pointless stats. Likewise, "this monster is so beyond you that it can simply kill you by the dozen...run" is far more elegant than dozens of pages of pointless stats.

A treadmill is when you put in effort but effectively go nowhere.

By this reasoning, it's also a treadmill if a person lives with their parents when they are young, moves into an apartment later, and finally buys a house to live in. You're just living somewhere, right? However, that's clearly an absurd stance to take. There's obviously quite a significant difference between living with your parents and owning your own home. By your logic, how would one get off the treadmill? Become homeless? I hardly see how that's desirable.

Similarly, it seems the only way to break what you claim is a treadmill in the gameplay loop would be to fundamentally change how the game plays at higher levels. For example, in older editions the focus changed from adventuring to domain management. However, some people didn't enjoy the domain management, and therefore largely ignored it in lieu of continuing adventure. I daresay that this was the preference for a sufficient proportion of the player base that domain management was largely removed in later editions, in favor of adventuring.

I disagree that being a wet-behind-the-ears adventurer versus a world's foremost adventurer is just a treadmill. Sure, there are aspects of a treadmill in what they both do there. Fight monsters, loot, repeat.

However, if you pay attention and compare high level play versus low level play, the details show a stark contrast. High level characters have capabilities that their lower level counterparts lack, and can get up to shenanigans that their low level counterparts couldn't hope to. It doesn't matter that their enemies also have powerful capabilities.

I think trying to reduce the journey from Joe Average to Best In The World to a treadmill is quite silly. Joe Average can summon an Unseen Servant while World's Best can wish a clone of themselves (complete with their spell load out) into being. If you want to call that a treadmill, it's a free country, but I couldn't disagree more. Personally, I think you're most likely conflating the idea of a gameplay loop with that of a treadmill. A gameplay loop is similar to a treadmill in that it is a loop, but differs in that it allows for progression.

 

[payn]

A treadmill is when you put in effort but effectively go nowhere.

By this reasoning, it's also a treadmill if a person lives with their parents when they are young, moves into an apartment later, and finally buys a house to live in. You're just living somewhere, right? However, that's clearly an absurd stance to take. There's obviously quite a significant difference between living with your parents and owning your own home. By your logic, how would one get off the treadmill? Become homeless? I hardly see how that's desirable.

Similarly, it seems the only way to break what you claim is a treadmill in the gameplay loop would be to fundamentally change how the game plays at higher levels. For example, in older editions the focus changed from adventuring to domain management. However, some people didn't enjoy the domain management, and therefore largely ignored it in lieu of continuing adventure. I daresay that this was the preference for a sufficient proportion of the player base that domain management was largely removed in later editions, in favor of adventuring.

I disagree that being a wet-behind-the-ears adventurer versus a world's foremost adventurer is just a treadmill. Sure, there are aspects of a treadmill in what they both do there. Fight monsters, loot, repeat.

However, if you pay attention and compare high level play versus low level play, the details show a stark contrast. High level characters have capabilities that their lower level counterparts lack, and can get up to shenanigans that their low level counterparts couldn't hope to. It doesn't matter that their enemies also have powerful capabilities.

I think trying to reduce the journey from Joe Average to Best In The World to a treadmill is quite silly. Joe Average can summon an Unseen Servant while World's Best can wish a clone of themselves (complete with their spell load out) into being. If you want to call that a treadmill, it's a free country, but I couldn't disagree more. Personally, I think you're most likely conflating the idea of a gameplay loop with that of a treadmill. A gameplay loop is similar to a treadmill in that it is a loop, but differs in that it allows for progression.

Change all the options into numbers, and yeah its just a treadmill. You just go from living in your moms basement to having your own home. Clearly, there is a difference, but in the grand scheme of things its all the same.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A treadmill is when you put in effort but effectively go nowhere.

the part I find funny about the treadmill complain (and as always goes back to 4e bashing) all I hear is "If you go out of your way to make the game fun your doing it wrong"

 

[payn]

the part I find funny about the treadmill complain (and as always goes back to 4e bashing) all I hear is "If you go out of your way to make the game fun your doing it wrong"

If it helps, I think PF2 is taking that award away from 4E.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If it helps, I think PF2 is taking that award away from 4E.

I don't know. I had such problems with PF1 the time I tried that I am not looking back for 2e. I do wish alchemist magus and other new classes from PF 1 had influenced 5e classes though