[FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!

[Sheridan]

Current Contests link

Could the link for this thread be put back on the home page under "Current Contests", at least until the winners are posted ? I had a heck of a time trying to find this again after it was taken off the contests lists. Now at least I have it bookmarked.
Just a suggestion !
Thanks,
*Sheridan

 

[Tallow]

Re: More critiques and fun...

Spirit of the Beast shapes up to be one of my favorites in concept. Unfortunately, it reads like the author was afraid to commit to the idea of legendary power. I think the Binding Ritual Quest has too steep save DCs and the price of failure is too high, unless the shaman is aiding the aspirant with magic on those saving throws. I don’t really like that the abilities are only useable in a Rage state, and, with that in mind, why does Rage Form bother to state that the ability is used when in Rage? Howl of the Beast is way too powerful, and should be something that affects enemy morale or something. Why does the animal spirit have an elemental subtype? It would make more sense to make some unique aspect to spirits. Spirit Walk is weak, considering spells such as etherealness and ethereal jaunt. Totemic Aura, on the other hand is too powerful, one bonus or the other please. Totemic Smite is a good idea, but the favored enemy feature and the smite ability (perhaps) should be two separate powers. Spirit Lore is the same as Knowledge (spirits) BTW. I would have liked to see this class have a hybrid form ability like the Beorning warriors of Middle Earth. This is still one of my favorite submissions!

I'm not sure I understand why you felt I was afraid to commit to legendary power. Please explain that comment.

Here are some of my comments that might make sense to you. By the way, I really do appreciate your honest criticism, and I'm glad you enjoyed the concept.

1. Only in Rage Form: My intent was that the power of the rage is what fueled the powers while the bonding with the animal totem facilitated them. I don't believe I said under the Rage Form heading that Rage Form was only useable in rage. I made the blanket generic note, so I didn't have to rewrite it 8 times. If it made the one ability a bit redundant, oh well. The elemental subtype to me, was the logical progression of the next powerful creature from Huge size. Nature, in many nature-based society's philosophies, is composed of 4 or 5 elements. As such, it makes sense that the paragon of a Bear Spirit might be a Huge Fiery Bear. Please give an example of the 5 level of progression you would have used?

2. On the Binding Ritual save DC's, the idea was that during the preparation, the Shaman very well could enhance his saves with magic, and I wanted to make it very difficult. The fortitude Save, for a 13th level Barbarian, should be about a 15% deal. They should be able to make it with a roll of 17 or better. Consider that by 13th Level, the barbarian has probably gathered plenty of items to enhance his saves and has the Great Fortitude feat (a requirement). Perhaps leave the Fortitude at 30, but drop the Will save to 25 to give a similar chance at the Will save.

3. Howl of the Beast: The intent was to use the howl much like a Wolf calling for help from his brethren, or akin to the Horn of Gondor. "Hey, I need help, come give it to me!" I agree, the power could be ridiculous if he had an 18 Cha, and rolled a 6, and his animal totem was elephant. Can you imagine fighting next to 10 Dire Elephants? I suppose thats Legendary <G>. Perhaps if I changed it to a number of hit dice of creatures equal to 5HD per power level. That way at 5th power level, the Elephant Spirit of the Beast could summon 1 dire elephant, while the Wolf could still summon multiple dire wolves. Perhaps rather than make it a summon like the spell, he calls out and if any animals up to the max hit dice are within 1 mile per power level, they come running. The chance they are in the area will be up to the DM, but its doubtful that the Python could call Pythons while adventuring on a Glacier.

4. Spirit Walk: Yeah I wasn't extremely happy with this one, but I wanted to limit it severely. After all the Spirit of the Beast is NOT "true" spell caster. Even if he takes the Casting ability. The idea was, that it would give him an ability to do some stealthy recon and/or walk through an otherwise impassable wall, or something like that.

5. Totemic Aura: Yeah, I guess a total possible swing of 10 is too much. Consider it a penalty to the enemy then. Barbarian's are harsh, let the skald cheer them up or let them find their own cheer <G>.

6. Totemic Smite: I disagree with you completely on this one. The reasoning is that Favored Enemy grants them a better chance to hit harder because they are intimately familiar with tactics, anatomy, etc. The favored enemy part facilitates the catastrophic attack part.

7. Hybrid Form: I considered a hybrid form, perhaps as the 5th power level of Rage Form. I might actually adjust Rage Form to make the 5th power level grant a hybrid form. I just didn't want to get too cheesy with this guy. Can you imagine a HUGE man-bear?

Again, thanks for the constructive criticism. I'm glad you enjoyed the concept if not the entirety of the extrapolation.

Andy Christian

 

[reddist]

Brawler feedback feedback

Heya Following are replies to Khur's and Shadeus' critiques of one of my LCs...

[The only beefs I have with this guy is that his Thick Blood doesn’t seem so thick. A maximum +5 to Fort saves versus mundane poison isn’t so much.]

True, and it is only applied in special cases... how about twice his power level to save vs mundane poisons? That brings his max up to +10.

Speaking of which, his BAB will have to be brought up to +12 as well it sounds like.

[Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful... etc] and [I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful. ]

Also well considered.... and I like your subdual DR suggestion.

Shurg Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage. He has a damage resistance applicable to subdual damage sustained in melee equal to his power level plus his Constitution modifier. This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by enviornmental conditions.

[The Brawler is hilarious! I hope it was meant to be funny – a “legendary” bar-fighter. *har, har * ] and [and I wasn't sure if a bar-room brawler could be the stuff of legends.]

Haven't you guys seen "Everywhich Way But Loose," "Roadhouse," "Fight Club," or any of those "Prisoner v Prisoner Down in the Broiler Room" or other "illegal pit fighting for fun and profit" movies? Rarely does anybody actually DIE (unless its the villain killing the hero's best friend/lover/brother) in these, and the heroes certainly make a name for themselves by being good at what they do

Plus, I think PCs getting involved in a knock-down, drag-out, no-holds-barred fist fight might be fun. That, and medieval Toughman Contests are held at every solstice festival! 1000gp if you can beat the King's Warden at fisticuffs!

Thanks for your time and consideration. Your comments are appreciated.

Anyone looked at "The One" yet? I had fun with it

-Reddist

 

[RedCliff]

Warrior of the Broken Wake - I definitely think Sever Life is too powerful. If taken at 5th-level, that means 25 points of damage would be enough for a save or die. Combine that with Crushing Blow and that means just about every hit is save or die.

Actually, Crushing Blow only applies when striking objects, sundering, that sort of thing. The damage bonus doesn't apply to the living. I played with the wording on that for a while, and cut down on the verbiage significantly in the final form, though I apparently didn't make it as clear as I was hoping.

As to making it an increase in the massive damage DC check, that's probably a good alternative, and frankly I don't know why I didn't think of it. The reason I figured dropping the threshold as low as 25 would be alright was simply because I figured anything legends would be fighting could make the standard DC most times. But overall, I think increasing the DC would be the better way to go, if simply to remove an extra die roll from the combat turn and make things move faster in general. So yeah, if I could go back and change that, I would.

On to others work: (I hope to get more up soon)

Bearer of the World's Pain: I think the concept is great, and I really like some of the powers. The various paths you could take with this class bring to mind images of everything from humble wadering holy men to avengers like the Crow (especially with Thy Pain Returned). It's not a typical hero by any means, but the fact that there are a plethora of real legends of people who endure great suffering certainly shows the concept is worthy of a legendary class.

I loved the Last Gift. What's more epic and legendary than a hero dying at the apex of his final, greatest struggle? That last boost he could give his flagging companions in his sacrifice ensures the Bearer of the World's Pain is the friend all the survivors mourn and claim was the real hero of the day. However, a one use power seems a bit steep. I might change this to either when the Bearer is brought to negative hit points, or at least allow it's use if the hero is resurrected. Maybe placing some stipulations on resurrection, like what was done with the Adamantine Warrior, would be appropriate.

Pain None Shall Feel could be quite unbalancing unless I'm reading it wrong. Is it 10/- per level meaning at level 3 it's 30/-, or is it 10/+3? The latter would be quite strong, but the former could really send a campaign into an uproar.

As for Demonbane, I think it's a good idea, and the power is certainly far from overdone, but I'm not sure about the bonus only applying to unarmed attacks. I know that this class is intended for monks, but isn't the whole idea of prestige classes to transcend normal classes? They're more conceptually based than anything, just like this class. The text even says that paladins and clerics could seek this path, and that's certainly appropriate. But then why wouldn't their weapons get the bonus? I don't think balance would be horribly upset by applying this bonus to the Bearer's other weapons as well.

Really though, the only issue I really have with the class is the quest. There seems something wrong with just taking a trail and then becoming a legend. The feel I got from reading the FFG excerpt we were provided was that the quests themselves should be worthy of stories. The adamantine warrior first has to stalk off and slay overwhelming odds. Only then, once the stories are already beginning, does he undergo the test to see if he truly is the one. But by the time he's a full blown adamantine warrior, there's a good chance his exploits from the trials are already being attributed to him as his first deeds as the warrior.

The trials laid out for this class are difficult (maybe too much, since failing some very difficult saves will kill your character), but not particularly legendary. Nothing springs to mind immediately unfortunately, so I'm not sure how useful that is, but some quest where the character has to really give of himself for others would seem appropriate. Maybe even throw in a requirement where the character must have sacrificed his life for another. That should get the stories going.

 

[Khur]

Nimrod, take II

Khur,
Thanks for your comments on my Nimrod Legendary Class. Here’s what some of my reasoning was behind a few of the abilities you questioned:

My pleasure, it was fun to read yours (and everyone's) hard work – and I know it’s hard work. I think many ideas presented by the hopefuls in this contest were very good, such as your use of the word Nimrod. Many persons may think that Nimrod is an insulting term by its use in some slang today. Few in the general populace realize its application to skilled hunters, since Noah’s son (a skilled legendary hunter) was named Nimrod.

1) Tameness (nice pun) on powers – I wanted something that offered definite advantages over being just a plain Ranger, but not something that was too powerful or over the top as to definitely upset game balance. With this in mind, I probably tended to err on the cautious side.

Many of us erred on the side of caution, probably influenced by experience as GMs in games gone awry as well as the concept of Prestige Classes. Without getting into the philosophy of game balance (a mythical creature greatly sought, but never captured), these LCs push the gamut of the concept. Should a legendary character have to be balanced? My thought is: no. Therefore, the accomplishments needed to get into such a class should be titanic. Players should try and fail.

2) Saves – I used the “higher” save bonus recommended for levels 1-5…

Aha, I see what you did and from where the Will progression comes. The single +1 at the top threw me, since “low” saves are usually +0, +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, and etc. This may be a better idea than the dual “high” saving throw seen in many LCs, but refer to game balance above. LCs are like the monks, druids, and clerics of high-level play. They’re supposed to be burly, and so have better saves.

3) The Heal Skill does not (to my knowledge) explicitly say anywhere that it cannot be used on animals, but the write up in the Player’s Handbook reads as if it was intended for use only on player character races. To have it applicable to animal species as well, by default, seems a bit of a leap to me, but would probably vary according to DM’s discretion.

I think that this was a flaw in the original design of the game. Handle Animal (perhaps Animal Empathy) and Heal should have some synergy in this situation – so possessing both skills makes you a veterinarian. (This allows one to use the Expert class to make a great animal trainer and healer, especially if said NPC takes a level or three of adept.)

Most skills are broad in scope – for example in the PH it shows how Bluff can be used to feint in combat. Defenders of the Faith describes how Heal can be used to gather forensic evidence (a bad idea in my opinion, because it seems to assert that any doctor could do forensic work). This shows how broad a skill can be. I think that it’s reasonable to allow skills to affect each other or even require synergies. Like, instead of allowing a character with plain Heal to be a forensics expert, require Knowledge (forensics) as well, and the two grant synergy bonuses in some way in appropriate circumstances.

I did not want to use was the Druid’s “Wild Shape” ability, as I was trying to create a character that had managed to “attune” themselves to animals and nature, without actually having the ability to "be" an animal.

I understand, I just think that the class would be better served by slightly more powerful spellcasting, maybe with a choice from a specific list of appropriate druid spells – the choices limited by power level. (See the Green Warden’s One with the Land ability.) Consider Venom Immunity as the power level 5 ability for Druidic Abilities – I know it’s a 9th-level class feature for the druid, but so what. We’re talking a legendary hero with at the pinnacle of possible power. It’s also a nice relation to Prepare Antitoxin.

5) “Peaceful outdoor setting” – Basically, when the Nimrod would have surprise - no combat currently taking place, and the Nimrod has managed to find an advantageous location…

I see this Hunting Ability, but the possibilities expand before me. What you have here is more of a Prestige Class ability. Consider making the bonus +2 per power level to both abilities listed in Hunting Ability. Also, if the Nimrod has surprise on his side, why not allow an increased threat range (+1 per power level) for criticals and/or sneak-attack-like damage bonuses against animals? That’s legendary hunting!

The fact is, raised with a hunter, I learned it’s quite easy to bring down animals with one shot (from an arrow). But consider that Silver Marches lists an elk as having 16 hp on average and a non-magical 18-19 Str mighty longbow can do a maximum of 12 (1d8 + 4) on a non-critical hit (20). Hunters bring down animals listed with high hp (10+) more than 5% of the time. Further, it was well-known around where I grew up that a man with quite a temper killed a horse (light horse, 19 hp) with his fist in one blow – perhaps he just rolled 3 20s.

I like this discussion!

 

[d20Dwarf]

Re: Brawler feedback feedback

[Shrug Off Blows is way too powerful... etc] and [I have to agree with Khur, that the Shrug off blows is a bit too powerful. ]

Also well considered.... and I like your subdual DR suggestion.

Shurg Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage. He has a damage resistance applicable to subdual damage sustained in melee equal to his power level plus his Constitution modifier. This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by enviornmental conditions.

Actually I kinda liked the ability to heal subdual damage super fast. It isn't overpowering, in my opinion, since it is only subdual damage that's being healed.

Also, in reference to the case above, I'm not sure its a good idea to make an ability's power relate to an attribute bonus. If you do that, suddenly the power level at which I take this ability doesn't really matter that much in comparison to my +5 or +6 Con modifier. I try to make the power level at which you take an ability as important as possible, since that's some of the main flavor of these classes. One reason LgCs are cool is that any two of the same class can be completely different based on when they take certain abilities. In my opinion, it is better to increase the bonus per power level and then just leave the attribute modifier out. So give him DR 2/- per power level against subdual damage, or even 3/- since it is one of his main abilities. These guys are legendary!!!

I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.

 

[Khur]

Brawler feedback feedback feedback feedback

Actually I kinda liked the ability to heal subdual damage super fast. It isn't overpowering, in my opinion, since it is only subdual damage that's being healed.

The reason I said it was too powerful is because the guy in question is healing pretty rapidly at power level 5 ... but I see the point. I tend to be a worse case scenario GM when analyzing abilities for inclusion in my campaign.

A character with Shrug Off Blows at level 1 is healing 600 points of subdual damage per hour. Too much, especially considering the original language of the power doesn't distinguish between subdual caused by melee and that caused by exposure or movement. This power (inadvertently) renders the character immune to cold and hot weather and gives unlimited endurance for Hustling and Forced March.

The fact that the latter examples do subdual damage is a bone-headed piece of game design is beside the point. The fact that hit points were used exclusively in D&D in lieu of the more elegant Wound Point system was also bone-headed, but that’s another topic.

 

[reddist]

Brawlerpatches

I definitely see Khur's point about the rapid healing, even of subdual damage, being a bit over much. I had intended to put the bit in about weather/environmental effects in the final copy, but it didn't make it.

I also see d20Dwarf's point about not tying legendary abilities to ability modifiers...

So how about these patches to the original text

Base (Unarmed) Attack Bonus: 12+

Thick Blood (Ex): Years spent in bars drinking minotaurs and ogres under the table builds up the Brawler's tolerances to poisons in his bloodstream. He gains a bonus to Fortitude saves versus mundane poisons equal to twice his power level, including saves to avoid the adverse side effects of alcohol.

Shrug Off Blows (Ex): The Brawler is adept at absorbing damage. He gains damage resistance against subdual damage sustained in melee equal to twice his power level. Thus, at third level, he gains DR 6/- versus subdual damage. This does not apply to normal damage or energy damage, or to subdual damage brought on by environmental conditions or physical activity outside of melee.


I wonder about increasing the DR to 3/PL though. That'd potentially get him to DR 15/-, applicable only to subdual melee damage, vs DR 10/-. I guess in the long run 15 is not that much overly powerful than 10.

-Reddist

 

[d20Dwarf]

Khur,

You are good to look at worst case scenarios, I have to do the same thing. I have some of the best munchkins in the business breaking my lame ideas. When it comes to LgC abilities, I tend to overpower some of them just a bit because the classes are so darn hard to get into!

Reddist,

That's fine to keep the DR where it is, I don't think either way is really wrong, one just focuses on the low side while the other on the high side.

Also on requirements, it has been suggested that ability requirements be placed at odd numbers, since even numbers already give you a bonus. Placing it at an odd number gives someone a reason to put that 17 in Con instead of the 16, or to bump it up at 4th or 8th level.

 

[Shadeus]

The part I've been having trouble balancing with the LgC is the fact you only get one power of each level. So for example, the Shrug off Blows seems very powerful when taken at 5th-level, and very weak when taken at 1st-level. But you have to understand you only can take one ability at level 5. So its a matter of balancing out not only the 10/- for Shrug Off Blows, but what's unbalancing about another ability at 4th-level?

I had a lot of problems with it in my Grandmaster of the Clouds because he gets a Dex bonus and an Initiative bonus as two possible abilities. Combining both (Dex at 4th-level and the Init bonus at 5th) makes for a +4 bonus to Dex (+2 Init) and a +5 bonus to Init, which is a total of +7 to Initiative. Is that totally unbalancing. Combine that with Imp. Init and a Base 20 Dex and you have +16 to Initiative. Is that balanced? Probably not. However, there's all kinds of other abilities they give up when they do this.

It is a very cool concept, but just very difficult to balance correctly.