Fighters vs mages at high level.

[gabrion]

This reminds me of the 3 stooges running around just hoping something will work.

Well the simple fact is that there as so many ways to easily defeat you, that we are all coming up with different ones. If you want, we could all pick one of the many strategies we have oultined and just stand behind that.

My vote is for sending you to another plane (not one where you can just fight demons and come back, something more like the negative energy plane that was brought up) via reverse gravity and gate.

The only way you have gotten around such a strategy is by saying you are an archer and you will be too far away. So you get to pick the distance of an encounter now? In any case it doesn't matter because the contigency will give the wizard an advantage even if you win initiative and then all he has to do is teleport back in and execute the above strategy to destroy you.

On a different note, you keep complaining that the "wizard is preparing for a fighter," or "you don't have that many 9th level spells," or "you are using too expensive of items." All of these complaints are unfounded. You are wrong about all of these things because a 20th level wizard with an everyday semi-combat oriented spell list would still defeat your guy, and it would only take 4-5 spells.

As Diirk said, this is getting a bit frustrating and you obviously aren't familiar enough with the rules to know the implications of what you are saying, so why don't we just leave it at that. If we stop arguing now, you will have more time to go back through and read the rules of the game-something you really should do before getting into a debate like this.

 

[Thanee]

Initiative isnt remotely 50/50.

No, you are right. Considering the options epic level spellcasters get, it's more like 100/0 (left = wizard).

Lol a fraction of the spells a wizard has?

Of course... Let's say we use the Forcecage version, that's 9 spells to kill the fighter (and that's making it really sure, so he cannot even escape with an item that grants Dimension Door or similar tactics). ~10% of the daily alotment of spells, not a single spell above 8th level, 6/9 are only 5th level even.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Lol or I can make a cleric or or wizard and fry you. Since your allways anti fighter you cant go changing it now.

Still 90% of my spells left to deal with those and numerous other threats.

Cloud kill doesnt work. Its a weak spell. Even inside the wall of force.

You so have no clue!

Sorry, but I mean... really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Halcyon]

I havent seen this posted in the thread, though I may have missed it. The most simple fact is almost all of a 30th level fighter's power is based on his items. If the mage has a disjunction or two prepared it's game over, even if the fighter has some item with antimagic on it. 30th level fighter with no magic items or buffs vs wizard with almost full spell loadout is an easy win for the mage. Thats part of the problem with noncasting classes depending more and more as they level on magic items as part of their power.

 

[Testament]

2nd Edition stacked rings. Must still be using that idea.
The gear is to enhance saves. The weapon is only +5. its not even epic and no specail bonuses. Its not a game breaker if the it doesnt work and neither do the wizards spells. I can still tag him while he tried to break the antimagic and when he finally succeeds, lol i get my +5 back.

Woohoo! There go your saves then!

Initiative isnt remotely 50/50. The mage has +8 at best, the fighter has +18 without taking superior initiative. Assuming an average roll of 10 the mages initiative is 18 the ranged fighters is 28. The archer could roll a 1 and tie the average roll of the mage. They dont have the same option to persue. The mage has to emphasize INT. The archer focuses on DEX. Enhancing his attack rolls, AC and initiative. Plus all the extra feats.

OH well then, I'll just have my chain contingency set to dim door me X distance away, put up Mislead and another spell for good measure when I'm attacked.

Once more epic magic really blows. Its tens of thousands of wasted GP, absurd spell craft checks and each spell takes a full minute to cast.

Who said anything about Epic magic?

Lol since a smart fighter will study his foes, catch and torture an apprentice into talking and no your all pathetic and paranoid he will use his vast forture at that level to do 2 things.

Except that this is a smackdown duel.

Cloud kill doesnt work. Its a weak spell. Even inside the wall of force. If we are throwing poison around then all my arrows are poisoned and each hit is 6 poisoned arrows, the besst i can buy. Save for each one now. STR damage all of them. A 0 STR wizard is as helpless as a 0 STR fighter. Look at the poison rules.

And how are you firing out of the cloudkill filled forcecage?

And you still haven't answered how you deal with being gated to the Negative Energy plane.

 

[Crothian]

Mages own Fighters. Really.

Come on now.

Ya, but that's slavery

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I was going to suggest that there is really only one way to solve this. boredgremlin and one of the rest of you guys would need to stat out a level 30 character and then we could compare the two, just like E-B and Scion did in the Fighter vs. PsyWar thread....

...but to be honest, I don't have much confidence that boredgremlin could stat such a character out without so many mistakes as to make even that comparison pointless...

 

[Gidien]

Just a quick note on Epic spells: It's actually very easy to insert enough mitigating factors into a spell to reduce it's craft DC to 0. At this point, the spell takes no time or money to create, and the caster should have a million of these. Epic spells also provide a very flexible way to give yourself long term and very large bonuses. In other words, any epic spellcaster worth his robes would have a several long duration (multiple day) buffs up at all time, possibly to initiative (I don't have any books with me, so I don't know if initiative cannot recieve bonuses for epic level spells). Really, Epic spells are easy to abuse, and the ones in the ELH are pretty weak examples of what the system can do.

If anyone doubts their power I would happily point out Sepulcrave's wonderful Story Hour, where his characters often whip out 0 DC Epic Spells or increase their Int by about a hundred points (hm, talk about bonus spells now...)

 

[Jack Simth]

Initiative isn't up for direct manipulation by Epic spells, but Dex is.

Okay - how do you get hundreds of bonus points to a stat, even via epic spells (assuming level 30, that is) with a spellcraft DC of 0 that you can actually use daily? Let's see... an 11 minute casting time (+10 minutes, perfectly okay for a 20-hour buff spell), personal only, gives -22; if there is another caster handy willing to give you a 9th level spell slot every day (cohort?), that's another -17 for -39. With two such, that's -56. Can't burn XP for daily buffs, can't have day-long casting times for daily buffs, backlash is a bad idea (it's per round for epic spells that have durations longer than instantaneous). Let's see... Fortify base DC is 17 for a +1 enhancement bonus base. Further increases to the enhancement is, what, +2 per? That -56 will be down to -1 with.... an extra +19, for a total enhancement bonus of +20. You can get it a lot higher if you have epic leadership and drag all your followers around with you to participate in the ritual, but that seems a tad excessive for a daily spell. That, and, you know - you are dragging an army with you wherever you go. I suppose you could set them up in a demiplane of your creation or something and Gate over there once a day....

 

[Thanee]

Buffy the Demiplane?

Bye
Thanee