Fighters vs mages at high level.

Plane Sailing said:
I'm afraid the number of factual errors or mistakes in the post rather undermine this assertion!
So lets point a few out. Unless your just another wizard fan boy who cant accept they suck. And this all assuming they had 4 hours to prepare for an epic fighter coming to kill them. A proposterous notion to begin with. Wizards research, create items and generally do all sorts of other things every day rather then sit biting thier nails and preparing to kill the next fighter who shows up. Lol what if it was a cleric? Or a another wizard come to kill you? And all your spells are based on a fighter, your toast. The fighter was built as a regular adventurer who minimized his weaknesses. There are lots of monsters with magic powers, especially at high level. My fighter was equipped and built for just another day on the job. The wizard had to spend all his high level slots specifically anti fighter just to have a chance. Meaning he had forewarning and 4 hours to prepare. Pretty unlikely.
A sorcerer would concern me. Because you could have him prepared in a halfway honest fashion. Figuring a wizard spent all his spell slots preparing for a fighter to kill him instead of another mage, cleric or rogue is completely retarded. The mage is the least flexible class of all. Never mind all the magic monsters who might try to kill him. Nope this mage is all about be ready to take down a fighter, all day, everyday. Just fightin the fighter. Lol bull.
 

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boredgremlin said:
6)cloudkill- wont effect a person sorrounded by walls of force. Reread the spell, walls of force block cloud effects and all other spells.

You know... that's why you cast it before you cast the Wall of Force. ;)

Cloud kills does 1d4 CON in a 20ft cloud. With a fort save for half, against a fighter. Lol. The one or 2 pts of CON wont hurt him.

No, one or two do not... fifty to sixty however... :p

And that's what we are looking at with a maximized Cloud Kill surrounded by Forcecage/Wall of Force... IF the fighter makes every save, that is!

Bye
Thanee
 

boredgremlin said:
And all your spells are based on a fighter, your toast.

Uhm... that's just a fraction of the spells per day a wizard has.

Nope this mage is all about be ready to take down a fighter, all day, everyday.

And, speaking from my own experience playing high level wizards, yes, that's exactly right. The only time, when you are not well-prepared for such a situation is when you sleep and when you just had such a situation and therefore the spells are used up on that day. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

As for initiative, I think it would be fair to assume, that this is just 50/50.

Both have the same options to boost initiative and every high level char will likely pursuit those, since initiative is about the most important ability at high levels. ;)

Of course, we could also look at what kind of quasi-permanent initiative bonuses an epic level wizard could come up with... I wouldn't be surprised, if you could *easily* get an additional +30 to all the stuff above with epic spellcasting for 24 hours.

Bye
Thanee
 

2) time stop/ decent idea Buuuut/ its 9th level so quickening it requires a level 13 spell and a 36 intelligence.
Please look up the automatic metamagic feats. Automatic Quicken x 3 = can quicken any 9th level spell without raising its level.

2) improved manyshot gives you- 2 arrows plus one per 5 pts of BAB. A 20th level fighter has 20 BAB. thats 4 more. Oops, 6 arrows we were both wrong. Epic bonuses to ATT arent BAB. If they were he would have 8 arrows.
ARRRGHHH ! YOU STILL HAVE IT COMPLETELY WRONG. Improved Manyshot gives you 2 arrows + 1 per 5 points of BAB ABOVE +6. So 2 at 6, 3 at 11, 4 at 16, 5 at 21, 6 at 26. I know BAB doesn't go over 20, but your epic attack bonus increases by +1 each odd level after 20 and for the purposes of feats that reference BAB, you add the 2 together. Otherwise Improved Manyshot would be pointless. A lvl 30 fighter has 25 BAB + epic attack, so he would get 5 arrows.

3) Teleport- The archer uses a readied action after beating your initiative to hit you if you try to cast a spell. One warrior is allow to easily track 1 warrior. So no matter where you teleport the archers readied attack can tag you the minute you start chanting and waving your arms around. Readied actions mean you cannot keep me from acting. I either beat you in initiative and kill you quick spells and all other spells by forcing your 100 DC concentration check or killing you outright. Or i ready an action to tag you the minute you pop up. Reread readied actions. They screw the teleporting wizard good.
Haha, if the fighter readies an action to interrupt my spell casting, I just use one of my many magic items (wands, scrolls etc) instead of casting a spell. Great, he just wasted his turn. You could probably word your readied action more generally, but there's ways around that too.

4) contingency- an oft misinterpreted and actually basically useless spell/ You can place a single spell upon your person to come into affect when the condition is met. .... You keep mentioning quickened contingencies. It doesnt say anything about a quickened action. Quickened actions are so powerfull they are allways clearly spelled out. Contingency is an extra spell under very limited conditions. Not a quickened catch all spell.

"The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur."

Its instant. It happens instantly. Its not quickened, because it doesn't count against your limit of quickened spells per round... it just happens instantly when the conditions are met. A convenient condition might be "When I get injured". Thats fairly specific.

5) force cage) using this to gate is stupid. Important to note is this is a 9th level spell. even a 30th level mage with a +10 INT only has 1 bonus 9th level spell and 4 base 9th level spells. Leaving you with 5 gates. Now then you cant get dragons. You can only get extra planar creatures and no named beings. Calling creatures to fight for you only lasts one round per caster level. Lol your own stupid force cage will make sure they cant do anything. And no good DM will let you automaticcally know what minute of the day you cast the force cage so you can come back the next day and prepare. This is an age without clocks after all. And each casting of this spell costs you 1,000 exp. For a spell that will likely be cast too soon or too late and wasted.
See you've made a few more fundamental mistakes here. You're right about the dragons, that was my bad.. but there's plenty other bad things you can summon. Its true that they'll only stick around for 30 rounds without some sort of contract, but this force cage.. it doesn't have to last 2 hours/level. Its dismissible. That means I can get rid of it any time I want to. And you can get named beings, just not unique beings (eg. The Tarrasque.. there's only 1 in all of existance.)

6)cloudkill- wont effect a person sorrounded by walls of force. Reread the spell, walls of force block cloud effects and all other spells. Cloud kills does 1d4 CON in a 20ft cloud. With a fort save for half, against a fighter. Lol. The one or 2 pts of CON wont hurt him.

I'm aware that walls of force block cloud effects. Thats whats so great about this combo. You cast the cloudkill first, then you put the force effects around it , and all of a sudden you're trapped in the middle and there's nowhere for the gas to dissipate to. 1d4 con save for half is truely pitiful, but when you have no way to heal it and your stuck in it for long periods of time, you die. Simple.

7) Killing a mages familiar takes 1 attack. A mage gets a D4. Averave of 2 HP per die. thats 60 hp. Or assuming your mage rolled 30 4's (highly unlikely, go buy lotto tickets if you can do this) 120 HP. In order for your mage to have 240 HP she would have to have a +2 con and roll all max dice. Or assuming average rolls and 60 HP the mage would need 180 HP from CON. For 30 levels that +6 con mod or a 22 CON. Mages dont get that without penalizing thier casting stat so bad they cant cast over 10th level spells. Unless your in a monty haul campaign. In which case your game is broke and your disqualified.
The average of d4 is 2.5 HP per die, not 2. A lvl 30 mage with 10 con will have an average of 75 hitpoints. Con makes most of his hitpoints. If he has 20 con, he'll have 225 hitpoints at level 30. A 28 point buy mage might have 8 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 12 wis, 10 cha. So 20 con just means a +6 con item. A +6 con item costs 36k gold. The average lvl 20 character has 760k worth of positions. The average lvl 30 has somewhere in the order of millions. A +6 con item to a lvl 30 mage is similar to what a movie ticket costs for you. Its completely negligable.

7) shape change into an effective melee fighter is about your only chance, but you dont like it. Okay then, its off the table.
Like I said, the choker, gives you an extra spell per round. I personally wouldn't bother tho, its simply not necessary.

8) moment of prescience- one use. And it says you can only have one at a time. So if you use it as a true strike it cant help you on a save or AC. its really not a great spell. Shouldnt be that high a level. True strike is level 1 and this is only marginally better.
Yeah, but it lasts longer than true strike and its not like 8th level spells are particularly important for just 1 fight. Its main use is that it lasts a long time and its there when you need it to make the difference.

9) No it is luck. Really against a wizard i would bother with the 30 pts of elemental resistance and would take the 2nd ring of protection. Giving you a 50% to touch me. If you win initiative. You have to quicken teleport without error ( wouldnt want to muff the check and wind up stuck in the ground after all) Thats an 11th level spell.
I've explained this thing before. The 2nd ring doesn't stack; named bonuses in general do NOT stack. Rings of protection are deflection bonuses (bonii?). They DO NOT stack with each other.
Winning initiative is irrelevant with a well worded contingiency. With automatic quicken, quickened greater teleport is a 7th level spell. The chance to hit you is almost gauranteed. Or I could just disjunction you a few times and destroy all of your magic items.

10) Hp- You could buy a +6 con item. Of course that only saves you from the over 50% attacks of a 22nd level fighter not a 30th level one. But if you do its a bracer, i also gave you a headband of INT for the spell casting ability. Now you spent more money then me. 1.4 million more for the best. +12. Which will get you that +6 Con mod. But then 1.4 million dollars more is a lot. So lets give me mantle of spell resistance and that extra ring of protection. Now assuming you beat my intiative (10 pts better then yours) and touched me 50% chance. You have to beat a 40 SR. ( i took extra magic item slot, the fighter didnt come close to using even all his epic feats yet.) now your 30th level mage has to beat that too. Rolling a 10 or better. So you need to beat me in init with my bonus 10 pts higher, then roll over a 10 to hit me, and another 10 to beat my SR.
Gotta be honest, the odds of that happening suck. But on your headstone my fighter will write "she tried her best" at his own expense.
A +6 Con bonus item costs 1.4 million. Not 36 thousand. I did many shot slighty wrong.
instead of 3 hits for 21d8+105 or 189 average, its 18d8+90 for 153. Your still dead by about 50 pts.
Er.... a +6 con item costs 36 thousand. Its non epic. Look it up in the standard DM guide. Its peanuts. You have 40 SR? You must have paid alot. As a level 30 wizard I wouldn't be surprised if my caster level was 35+ (there're quite alot of effects that boost caster level), and I probably have some spell penetration feats. 40 SR vs a lvl 30 wizard should be completely trivial. The ring doesn't stack, the touch is virtually gauranteed, the initiative and SR are basically irrelevant...
AND YOU STILL DID MANYSHOT WRONG. You don't get 5 arrows per attack in your full attack, you get 5 ARROWS PER STANDARD ACTION. Look it up in the Player's Handbook (Improved Manyshot just builds on the standard one). You get 5 arrows if you manyshot (standard action), or 6 if you haste/rapid shot on a full attack.

Concentration checks- If you lose initiative and get hit before casting the spell that counts as taking damage while casting the spell. According to the skill description: You must make this check whenever you might potentially be distracted ( by taking damage, harsh weather and so on) while engaged in an action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on a spell or directing a spell like activity.
Damaged during action counts as before your turn. The 6 second round is relative remember? You start immediately, your initiative is when you finish, not when you start your action. Besides the table specifically said "in response to damage from a readied attack made in response to a spell being cast." It was allready stated the fighter would use his initiative to ready an action against the mages casting.
If you lose initiative and get hit before casting a spell it doesn't count as taking damage while casting the spell. You actually have to take damage inbetween the time you start casting and end casting.. if the spell is a standard action to cast, this generally only happens via readied actions , or continual damage (eg. acid arrows etc). You might want to reread the PHB.
That fluff about your turn starting at the start of the round not when your initiative comes up not only is a bit odd, but it doesn't matter; if you shoot me when I'm just standing there doing nothing its irrelevant; I don't actually start casting the spell til my initiative. You can tell it because I start flapping my arms and speaking weird words.
And as I said before.. if you ready an action it actually benefits me even more. I can cast more than 1 spell a round and you can only disrupt one of them. And it gives you less attacks per round, as you can only ready a standard action (not a full attack.. so a MAXIMUM of 5 arrows) and I can even baffle you by not casting a spell and do something else isntead, in which case your turn is wasted.

Rings of protection- usually stack, DM call.
Very much not a DM call, it explicitly says on page 21 of the DMG that same bonuses do NOT stack.

But if not i would just use a ring of spell storing for an antimagic.
Funnily enough this actually hurts you worse than it hurts me. Without any magic items (they don't function in metamagic) you have virtually no hope of hurting me. And when I gate in a few nasties (which don't disappear in antimagic, as they're called not summoned) and you find yourself with no magic items.... well, thats a bit of hurting.

Forcing you to use mords disjunction, another 9th level spell, your mage is fast running out. Now you dont know there is anti magic field there till your first spells dont work. Then you only have a 30% chance to disjoin it. Giving me for free time whatever spells you wasted on it at first to know there was a problem (no metagaming allowed) then at least 2 more and possibly 3 more spells to get rid of it. Assuming you quickened that many mords disjuntions. There go your 13th level spells from earlier.
Remember it takes an action to activate this antimagic field, so you'd be doing it instead of shooting me with arrows. And my high spellcraft check would let me identify what it was you were casting from this ring.

Lol and the whole time i turning you into a pin cushion. The mage has almost no chance against a prepared fighter. Sounds like your DM liked wizards and let you get away with some stuff that wasnt in the rules.
Not to sound rude, but the number of blatant rules errors you make in your posts lead me to believe you haven't read them very thoroughly. I suggest you do so before further partaking in this discussion.
 

Ehhh, sorry that post was alot longer than I thought it would be ! I was just trying to be thorough and pointing out all the mistakes. However a quick mention on this contingency thing:

If you really wanted to be abusive, speaking is define as not an action. You can speak short phrases at any time, even in the middle of other peoples turns. If you set up a contingency to say, cast otiluuke's resilient sphere on yourself, or teleport away, or any other number of things with the trigger being "I speak the word 'allakhazam!' " then you have a spell that, in effect, will fire at any time you want it to even in the middle of someone elses turn.

So your fighter wins initiative, I say 'Allakhazam' as he points his bow at me and I disappear in a cloud of smoke. I don't reappear until my initiative (with a quickened teleport) at which point I unleash my moment of prescience boosted irresistable dance (or other equally plausible finisher, such as imprisonment).

Note, that while this is by the rules, its very abusive and a real DM most likely wouldn't let you get away with it ;) But a contigency to teleport away when you get injured is fine and also minimizes the effects of losing initiative.
 

Testament said:
Sounds like your GM let you get away with breaking the rules. Bonuses of the same kind don't stack (with like 2 exceptions), so your two rings of protection don't stack!

And what kind of idiot fighter plops himself in an Antimagic Field unless he's a grapple monkey, since that means that none of his uber-1337 gear that you're bragging about will work?

And you haven't answered how you're getting initiative, since the Foresight or Moment of Prescience means that the Wizard's scoring +20 to the roll. Open with a Quickened Time Stop (courtesy of my Greater Quicken Rod, essential gear for any Epic Wizard), then an MDJ. This is followed by some nice set-up with a Reverse Gravity and a gate 10 feet above your head, set to send you to, ohhhh, how about the Negative Energy Plane? Time stop runs out, the two spells have lost a few rounds of duration, but that doesn't matter, you're dead anyway. A Death Ward effect is going to run out long before you find a way home. And you can't breathe there either, and you can't see.

Or, I could be an Archmage with Mastery of Shaping, Shapechange myself into a Choker and put up an Antimagic Field, shaping it so I'm in a hole in it. I'll also create a nice little line of effect for myself in it to fire out of. That's assuming I don't turn into a Dragon or a Chronotryn either.

See you in the next life!

2nd Edition stacked rings. Must still be using that idea.
The gear is to enhance saves. The weapon is only +5. its not even epic and no specail bonuses. Its not a game breaker if the it doesnt work and neither do the wizards spells. I can still tag him while he tried to break the antimagic and when he finally succeeds, lol i get my +5 back.
Moment of prescience does not help initiative. It specifically says: attack roll, opposed ability check, skill check, saving throw or a single attack. Read the spell again.
Foresight. Wow yet another 9th level spell. This mage gets 7. max. Maybe you all should get together and try to decide one, so far your at about 13. This reminds me of the 3 stooges running around just hoping something will work. Back to the spell though. Your never surprised or flatfooted (never said anything about this), +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex saves, yup not one thing about initiative. Once again. Try reading the spell descriptions.

Initiative isnt remotely 50/50. The mage has +8 at best, the fighter has +18 without taking superior initiative. Assuming an average roll of 10 the mages initiative is 18 the ranged fighters is 28. The archer could roll a 1 and tie the average roll of the mage. They dont have the same option to persue. The mage has to emphasize INT. The archer focuses on DEX. Enhancing his attack rolls, AC and initiative. Plus all the extra feats.

Once more epic magic really blows. Its tens of thousands of wasted GP, absurd spell craft checks and each spell takes a full minute to cast.

Lol a fraction of the spells a wizard has? Wizards dont gain more spells at epic levels. Epic levels screw the wizard good. He has to blow a feat just to get one more spell level. Each feat of enhanced spell capacity gives him one single spell of the next highest level. Even a 35 INT wizards has spells 4/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7. But all your spells are up to 8th, 9th or higher. Assuming all 7 epic feats spend on improved spell capacity you get starting at 10th level 2/2/2/1/1. Throwing quickened around (+4 spell level) you run out of those high level slots real fast.
Lol since a smart fighter will study his foes, catch and torture an apprentice into talking and no your all pathetic and paranoid he will use his vast forture at that level to do 2 things.
1)hire an assassin. They work very different. And your all anti fighter here.
2) buy a few golems or other anti magic beasts.
3) wait outside, send in all of the above, wait for the ruckus to die down then go in. You are either dead or you wasted most of your good spells. Anti magic monsters like golems go a good job chasing you off so the fighter can pillage all the valuables in your home. You still lost. Lol or I can make a cleric or or wizard and fry you. Since your allways anti fighter you cant go changing it now.
Cloud kill doesnt work. Its a weak spell. Even inside the wall of force. If we are throwing poison around then all my arrows are poisoned and each hit is 6 poisoned arrows, the besst i can buy. Save for each one now. STR damage all of them. A 0 STR wizard is as helpless as a 0 STR fighter. Look at the poison rules.
 

1)hire an assassin. They work very different. And your all anti fighter here.
You're right, an assassin is even easier. Weak fort save = death effect = dead. And NPCs have crappy gear ;)

2) buy a few golems or other anti magic beasts.
Which stand around looking silly as the wizard flies 100 feet above them ?

3) wait outside, send in all of the above, wait for the ruckus to die down then go in. You are either dead or you wasted most of your good spells. Anti magic monsters like golems go a good job chasing you off so the fighter can pillage all the valuables in your home. You still lost. Lol or I can make a cleric or or wizard and fry you. Since your allways anti fighter you cant go changing it now.
Huh ? Your fighter might not work so you roll a differenct character instead ? It doesn't matter, if you pick your spells decently a wizard will be prepared for most situations. And for the ones he isn't prepared for, he teleports away, memorizes new spells, and comes back later.

Cloud kill doesnt work. Its a weak spell. Even inside the wall of force. If we are throwing poison around then all my arrows are poisoned and each hit is 6 poisoned arrows, the besst i can buy. Save for each one now. STR damage all of them. A 0 STR wizard is as helpless as a 0 STR fighter. Look at the poison rules.
Why doesn't it work? Its save for half, not save for none. Its low damage, but it adds up. Your con is unlikely to be above 30 or 40, so even if you only take 1 a round, you'll die in 3-4 minutes.
You STILL have the many shot rules wrong, each STANDARD ACTION (ie once per round) you can shoot 5 arrows. Which inflict a poison which is what, dc 18 negates? for a really good one ? a lvl 30 wizard will have like +21 to his fortitude (minimum), he'll only ever fail his save on a 1. And you can't shoot arrows at me when your inside walls of force/forcecage without bars anyway.
 

Man, sorry I have to bow out of this thread. I'm getting a bit frustrated and my posts are getting a bit antagonistic + it kinda feels like bullying him, which I don't want to do.

Final note: While high level fighters can certainly put out alot of damage, the varied effects of magic are just so versatile that fighters can't really compete on a level playing field. While an unprepared wizard is certainly easy to slaughter, the hard bit is catching them unprepared ;)
 


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