Fighters vs mages at high level.

[Thanee]

Sanctuary!?

I guess a more reasonable Contingency would involve Teleport or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[gabrion]

Sanctuary!?

I guess a more reasonable Contingency would involve Teleport or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

LOL...ya, most people would do something sensible like teleport, but I just think it is more humiliating to lose to a lvl 1 spell! I mean it really doesn't matter what the contingency is. Sanctuary would probably work just because it would be a will save, which the fighter won't have a chance of making. Do what you like, the fighter is going to die.

 

[Diirk]

Sanctuary!?

I guess a more reasonable Contingency would involve Teleport or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

I'm in favour of otiluuke's resilient sphere. Good luck getting through that. And even if it does take a standard action to dismiss it, by the time you're finally ready to dismiss it, you can get an extra standard action (from being shapechanged into a choker) if you want, not to mention all the yummy quickened spells, and any touch spells you've imbued into your familiar...

Plus you get to watch the fighters face as he sits there staring, unable to do anything, as you buff yourself into a god

 

[gabrion]

BTW dirk, why would you shapechange into a choker? I think you should be using the chronotyryn from fiend folio. You get two full rounds of actions every round. Delicious...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I believe i just elegantly demonstrated how a fighter who intelligently bought a cloak and used his feats to improve his saves will usually hand the wizard his but on a plate.

I'm afraid the number of factual errors or mistakes in the post rather undermine this assertion!

 

[Thanee]

Because choker is core.

Bye
Thanee

 

[gabrion]

Because choker is core.

Bye
Thanee

Oh ya...my bad.

 

[boredgremlin]

Well I originally posted the Iajutsu Master idea because I was really reaching to think of a way for a fighter to win, but people really think this would be a challenge if the Wizard wins initiative?

I don't think anyone has brought up the Time Stop+MDJ+Reverse Gravity+Gate yet. No saving throws involved and the fighter looses all of his magical items and is sent to the plane of your choice. Lots of options and there really is no reason the fighter should be able to prevent this.

Honestly people, if you think a 30th lvl wizard winning initiative doesn't mean death for his enemy in a one on one fight, then you need to play a high level wizard some time.

Edit: Oops, I should have said there are no saves for the reverse gravity+gate thing, MDJ I think the fighter will get some will saves for his items. Good luck with that.

Sending a 30th level fighter to another dimension doesnt kill him. It just pisses him off cause he has to kill all these sorry demons. He probably comes back later really mad and even higher level. Lol and with more magic items he got because he killed said sorry demons. Even a pit fiend will barely slow a 20th level fighter much less a 30th level one.

1) reverve gravity annoys the fighter. The archer can still shoot you just fine. He is just irritated.
2) time stop/ decent idea Buuuut/ its 9th level so quickening it requires a level 13 spell and a 36 intelligence. Just cast it once quickened. INT 45 to cast another 13th level spell. And for this what you get is... no touch attacks, other creatures are immune to your attacks and spells, In fact the only things that do work are improving your won defenses or casting area effect spells that last longer then the time stop. So none of those instaneous spells work. All you can really do is buff yourself or run away. This spell is only good if you get surprised. And even then its effects are negligible. Your better off teleporting a continent away and taking all the time you want to prepare. This spell sucks.
2) improved manyshot gives you- 2 arrows plus one per 5 pts of BAB. A 20th level fighter has 20 BAB. thats 4 more. Oops, 6 arrows we were both wrong. Epic bonuses to ATT arent BAB. If they were he would have 8 arrows.
3) Teleport- The archer uses a readied action after beating your initiative to hit you if you try to cast a spell. One warrior is allow to easily track 1 warrior. So no matter where you teleport the archers readied attack can tag you the minute you start chanting and waving your arms around. Readied actions mean you cannot keep me from acting. I either beat you in initiative and kill you quick spells and all other spells by forcing your 100 DC concentration check or killing you outright. Or i ready an action to tag you the minute you pop up. Reread readied actions. They screw the teleporting wizard good.
4) contingency- an oft misinterpreted and actually basically useless spell/ You can place a single spell upon your person to come into affect when the condition is met. The spell specifially says it has a maximum of 6th spell level. Including meta magic. The conditions must be clear. The next time i am attacked is not clear. An attack could be verbal, could be something falling on your head. Magic is about as smart as a computer. Unless you say the next time i get attacked with an arrow, or a sword, or the next time i die etc. The spell does not work at all. You keep mentioning quickened contingencies. It doesnt say anything about a quickened action. Quickened actions are so powerfull they are allways clearly spelled out. Contingency is an extra spell under very limited conditions. Not a quickened catch all spell. For a quickened spell the 6th spell level maximum means your throwing a 2nd level spell. Somehow i just dont see acid arrow beating the 30th level fighter.
5) force cage) using this to gate is stupid. Important to note is this is a 9th level spell. even a 30th level mage with a +10 INT only has 1 bonus 9th level spell and 4 base 9th level spells. Leaving you with 5 gates. Now then you cant get dragons. You can only get extra planar creatures and no named beings. Calling creatures to fight for you only lasts one round per caster level. Lol your own stupid force cage will make sure they cant do anything. And no good DM will let you automaticcally know what minute of the day you cast the force cage so you can come back the next day and prepare. This is an age without clocks after all. And each casting of this spell costs you 1,000 exp. For a spell that will likely be cast too soon or too late and wasted.
6)cloudkill- wont effect a person sorrounded by walls of force. Reread the spell, walls of force block cloud effects and all other spells. Cloud kills does 1d4 CON in a 20ft cloud. With a fort save for half, against a fighter. Lol. The one or 2 pts of CON wont hurt him.
7) Killing a mages familiar takes 1 attack. A mage gets a D4. Averave of 2 HP per die. thats 60 hp. Or assuming your mage rolled 30 4's (highly unlikely, go buy lotto tickets if you can do this) 120 HP. In order for your mage to have 240 HP she would have to have a +2 con and roll all max dice. Or assuming average rolls and 60 HP the mage would need 180 HP from CON. For 30 levels that +6 con mod or a 22 CON. Mages dont get that without penalizing thier casting stat so bad they cant cast over 10th level spells. Unless your in a monty haul campaign. In which case your game is broke and your disqualified.
7) shape change into an effective melee fighter is about your only chance, but you dont like it. Okay then, its off the table.
8) moment of prescience- one use. And it says you can only have one at a time. So if you use it as a true strike it cant help you on a save or AC. its really not a great spell. Shouldnt be that high a level. True strike is level 1 and this is only marginally better.
9) No it is luck. Really against a wizard i would bother with the 30 pts of elemental resistance and would take the 2nd ring of protection. Giving you a 50% to touch me. If you win initiative. You have to quicken teleport without error ( wouldnt want to muff the check and wind up stuck in the ground after all) Thats an 11th level spell.
10) Hp- You could buy a +6 con item. Of course that only saves you from the over 50% attacks of a 22nd level fighter not a 30th level one. But if you do its a bracer, i also gave you a headband of INT for the spell casting ability. Now you spent more money then me. 1.4 million more for the best. +12. Which will get you that +6 Con mod. But then 1.4 million dollars more is a lot. So lets give me mantle of spell resistance and that extra ring of protection. Now assuming you beat my intiative (10 pts better then yours) and touched me 50% chance. You have to beat a 40 SR. ( i took extra magic item slot, the fighter didnt come close to using even all his epic feats yet.) now your 30th level mage has to beat that too. Rolling a 10 or better. So you need to beat me in init with my bonus 10 pts higher, then roll over a 10 to hit me, and another 10 to beat my SR.
Gotta be honest, the odds of that happening suck. But on your headstone my fighter will write "she tried her best" at his own expense.
A +6 Con bonus item costs 1.4 million. Not 36 thousand. I did many shot slighty wrong.
instead of 3 hits for 21d8+105 or 189 average, its 18d8+90 for 153. Your still dead by about 50 pts.
Concentration checks- If you lose initiative and get hit before casting the spell that counts as taking damage while casting the spell. According to the skill description: You must make this check whenever you might potentially be distracted ( by taking damage, harsh weather and so on) while engaged in an action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on a spell or directing a spell like activity.
Damaged during action counts as before your turn. The 6 second round is relative remember? You start immediately, your initiative is when you finish, not when you start your action. Besides the table specifically said "in response to damage from a readied attack made in response to a spell being cast." It was allready stated the fighter would use his initiative to ready an action against the mages casting.
Rings of protection- usually stack, DM call. But if not i would just use a ring of spell storing for an antimagic. Forcing you to use mords disjunction, another 9th level spell, your mage is fast running out. Now you dont know there is anti magic field there till your first spells dont work. Then you only have a 30% chance to disjoin it. Giving me for free time whatever spells you wasted on it at first to know there was a problem (no metagaming allowed) then at least 2 more and possibly 3 more spells to get rid of it. Assuming you quickened that many mords disjuntions. There go your 13th level spells from earlier.
Lol and the whole time i turning you into a pin cushion. The mage has almost no chance against a prepared fighter. Sounds like your DM liked wizards and let you get away with some stuff that wasnt in the rules.

 

[boredgremlin]

Hey guys, good job analyzing that argument!

Just to sum up what I think should happen (kinda an addition to my post above). We have two options.

1) Wizard wins initiative. He casts Time Stop+MDJ (maybe a few of these)+Reverse Gravity+Gate. Fighter Dies.

2) Wizard loses initiative. His contingency Sacutuary is triggered (from the protection domain he picked up through Arcane Disciple). He casts Time Stop+MDJ (maybe a few of these)+Reverse Gravity+Gate. Fighter Dies.

I really don't understand how people think the fighter has a chance...

Because you cant cast contingency for in case you lose initiative. Thats metagaming rules and it doesnt work that way. Your wizard has never even heard of ititiative. As i said reverse gravity doesnt effect an archer. Gate just has the high level fighter come back pissed off a few months later, and time stop doesnt let you hurt anyone. Your scenario fails to do anything but buy the wizard time. Even if your DM lets you metagame contingency into something like initiative. Which is blatantly wrong. Santuary is a cleric spell, you cant even use it. And if you if you could it allows a will save. For a first level spell thats a 10+1+10(ability)+4 (greater focus). total DC 25. The fighter with cloak of epic resistance has a +21 without any feats at all, iron will and epic will give him +27. Meaning your sanctuary has a 5% chance of working. If you added a cleric level somewhere in there to even be able to cast it.

 

[Testament]

Sounds like your GM let you get away with breaking the rules. Bonuses of the same kind don't stack (with like 2 exceptions), so your two rings of protection don't stack!

And what kind of idiot fighter plops himself in an Antimagic Field unless he's a grapple monkey, since that means that none of his uber-1337 gear that you're bragging about will work?

And you haven't answered how you're getting initiative, since the Foresight or Moment of Prescience means that the Wizard's scoring +20 to the roll. Open with a Quickened Time Stop (courtesy of my Greater Quicken Rod, essential gear for any Epic Wizard), then an MDJ. This is followed by some nice set-up with a Reverse Gravity and a gate 10 feet above your head, set to send you to, ohhhh, how about the Negative Energy Plane? Time stop runs out, the two spells have lost a few rounds of duration, but that doesn't matter, you're dead anyway. A Death Ward effect is going to run out long before you find a way home. And you can't breathe there either, and you can't see.

Or, I could be an Archmage with Mastery of Shaping, Shapechange myself into a Choker and put up an Antimagic Field, shaping it so I'm in a hole in it. I'll also create a nice little line of effect for myself in it to fire out of. That's assuming I don't turn into a Dragon or a Chronotryn either.

See you in the next life!