Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

They're universally high intelligence. Why can't any be autodidacts?

“any” or “all”? And where are the resources they study coming from? A truly self-trained spellcaster seems a lot more like a sorcerer, not reliant on spellbooks at all.
wiki said:
Autodidacticism (also autodidactism) or self-education is self-directed learning that is related to but different from informal learning. In a sense, autodidacticism is "learning on your own" or "by yourself", and an autodidact is a self-teacher. Autodidacticism is a contemplative, absorptive procession. Some autodidacts spend a great deal of time reviewing the resources of libraries and educational websites. One may become an autodidact at nearly any point in one's life. While some may have been informed in a conventional manner in a particular field, they may choose to inform themselves in other, often unrelated areas. Many notable contributions have been made by autodidacts.
Autodidactism is only one facet of learning, and is usually, but not necessarily, complemented by learning in formal and informal spaces: from classrooms to other social settings. Many autodidacts seek instruction and guidance from experts, friends, teachers, parents, siblings, and community. Inquiry into autodidacticism has implications for learning theory, educational research, educational philosophy and educational psychology.
Prices that exceed the value for small kingdoms. I'm not seeing the problem.

Funny…I don’t recall seeing price lists for kingdoms, small or otherwise. If only what is in the rules exists, then this is not a rule we can discuss. That said, most things that have a value that high lack a reliable pricing structure – yet magic has one. That implies less scarcity than is suggested.

Because "big lizard with lots of heads" his hardly mysterious. Plus, you know, the fact that they exist, and therefore can be cataloged and killed.

Our forebears got a lot of these things wrong, actually. And, if we know spells exist, it seems that they can be similarly investigated and catalogued.

"When the same spell keeps coming up?" Shouldn't it kinda tip you off when it's always SPELLS that keep coming up? I do love how you keep working to assign the blame on anything but the obvious source.

Without extensive research, I believe that there are more spells than any other element of the game (other than magic items, possibly, and they just use the spells anyway). It therefore stands to reason there are likely to be more broken spells than more broken “anything elses”.

Because spell loads change. I love how you seem incapable of understanding that.

The spell loads you cite seem to change with no actual preparation time. The whole party can fly, we leave no tracks, have no scent, are all invisible, etc. etc. etc.

Show me the divinations that let a L10 – 11 character (6th level spells maximum) locate and map out the dragon’s cave. Name the spells. I don’t discount the value of divinations, but I don’t overestimate their value either.
[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], I’d be interested in your wizard’s approach, as a 10th level wizard with what I assume are WBL resources, rather than a spellbook with every spell in the compendium and more besides.
 

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Well, offhand, Contact Other Plane is the most commonly cited one, and a wizard can have access to Commune from an Imp or Quasit, though such a familiar has alignment prerequisites.
 

Show me the divinations that let a L10 – 11 character (6th level spells maximum) locate and map out the dragon’s cave. Name the spells. I don’t discount the value of divinations, but I don’t overestimate their value either.

@Dandu , I’d be interested in your wizard’s approach, as a 10th level wizard with what I assume are WBL resources, rather than a spellbook with every spell in the compendium and more besides.

Argh, reluctant to get into this as this is going to be be exactly the sort of Calvinball, Rock/Paper/Scissors games about hypothetical strategic play that I find abhorrent enough to post in this thread. It isn't going to go anywhere as its going to be AHAHAHAHAH BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS ad nauseum. I don't GM that way. I GM by the philosophy of Say yes or roll the dice and I never try to assume an adversarial posture with any of the classes/archetypes players in my game. You just unfortunately must do that with powerful spellcasters (specifically Batman Wizards) in 3.x for the game to not go wobbly.

That being said. The first thing that comes to mind is to run a CIA Clairaudience/voyance operation on the local Lizard Man tribe in the marsh/bog/jungle that venerates the Black Dragon. Comprehend Languages and Invisibility as required. Once they give up the goods about the location of the sinkhole entrance that leads to the lair of the dragon (where they would go and give offerings to placate the beast), I go there and casts Legend Lore to learn about the story of the great (non-wizard) heroes of yore confronting the dragon but mostly dieing on their climb down the glyph/trap/guard-laden sinkhole tunnel. Now I'm on my disc (or likely just flying), with detect magic, avoiding obstacles, dispelling anything required, and floating down invisibly where at the bottom I render him quite "dead but doesn't know it yet" with Shivering Touch through Spectral Hand (with whatever means of buffed spell resistance penetration to ensure the check).

Or maybe Clairaudience/voyance does the trick. Maybe they actually go down into his/her lair to give him/her the offerings straight into his/her chamber so the great beast doesn't have to move. So I follow them invisibly while flying, navigate the tunnel the same way as before. Wait for them to leave and do my thing.

Those are the cool things a Diviner can do. If they can't do cool things such as that then forget being a Diviner. If we parry their well-devised strategic Calvinballed gameplan with our own (privy to all information in the world and can change on the fly as we wish) augmented, strategic Calvinball enough times then we are going to (and rightfully so) illicit contempt and distrust from our players. Diviners are "information guys". This is what they do. If they can't be fantasy world, CIA special agents then there won't be any Diviners or Divination school in our games. Its not their fault they still have access to other cool things that let them infiltrate and navigate warded lairs. Its not their fault they still have spells that bypass the saving throw system, that render the spell resistance system inert and that attack a dragon where they are most vulnerable.

Too much GM strategic Calvinball to parry Wizards' Calvinball (or worse, too much post-hoc lair protection after the Wizard has played their hand) and that GM won't have people playing Wizards and then they won't have a problem with spellcasters! Or they won't have players at all because the players will form the opinion that the GM is using privileged information to build post-hoc, strategic defenses that protect their precious encounter from a good Wizarding!
 

Most of the sets of clothing in the SRD weigh between 4 and 10 lbs. Bear in mind that the setting probably doesn't have the same access to lightweight hard-wearing materials that we have - if something is going to stand up to the rigours of the adventuring life, it's going to have to be pretty sturdy.

That said, I'm sure I recall a rule that normal clothes aren't counted towards your encumbrance. Though I can't find it again.

How does the Wizard's borrowed (or made) +6 Belt of Giant Strength work against the ray?
 

I'm curious which spells he would prepare for that hypothetical Black Dragon encounter, and what his typical "we're not certain what we will find today" day in, say, the city, wilderness travel and dungeon delving.

A general spell list would be something like Silent Image, Mage Armor, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Gitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Solid Fog, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Teleport, Wall of Stone.

There are a few low level slots left unfilled for flexability.

If I were to go hunting dragons, I suppose I'd have fewer Glitterdists, Stinking Clouds and Black Tentacles, and focus on spells that hinder the dragon's mobility, buff the fighter, and, if possible, obtain a scroll of Shivering Touch so I can add that to my spellbook. I'd probably pick up Invisibility as well.

But arre you SURE he is a real wizard? He has no Shivering Touch or Spectral Hand, no Mirror Image or Invisibility - he looks like he has only the spells he gained as he rose in levels.
Yes, that is because I decided to post this on short notice. As you may notice, he has enough money left over to purchase additional spells. I take it you are suggesting Spectral Hand, Shivering Touch, Mirror Image, and Invisibility?

I note that our Black Dragon would be CR 11 as an adult, so let's Youthenize him down from Mature Adult to be more comparable with the L10 wizard. That brings his saves to +15 F/+11 R/+12 W, his spell resistance to 18 (but his touch AC rises to a 9 :)).
It seems that Web and Solid Fog should do a good job of tying him down, then. I imagine Polymorphing the Fighter into, say, a War Troll and Enlarging the Cleric would allow them to do well against such an opponent.
 
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Cyclone_Joker, your behavior here is immature.

suffice it to say that IF you can play your favorite edition without needing to paint by the numbers, it can go a long way towards solving these sorts of problems, if your group is even having them.
It also happens to be a vital element of playing an RPG, regardless of edition. It's not a lame way out. To exclude house ruling, one might as well exclude dice, or, Gods forbid...pizza. It all goes together.
 


Well, offhand, Contact Other Plane is the most commonly cited one, and a wizard can have access to Commune from an Imp or Quasit, though such a familiar has alignment prerequisites.

Both reasonable choices. So let's look at what we get:

Contact Other Plane is online at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm. Note that all questions are answered “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer. That constrains the details quite a bit. You must make an INT check against DC 7 to 16 for each casting (that's a roll of 2 to 10 for your Wizard, I believe, depending on the contact). For every two caster levels, you may ask one question, so you get 5.

You have a % chance at a correct answer (and it's random if one word won't answer it). You may get "I dont know", a deliberate lie or a random answer. The odds depend on the DC of that INT check. Fail the check, and you can't cast spells for 1 - 5 weeks.

This actually seems pretty harsh for a 5th level spell - I had not read it that closely before!

How about Commune? It seems reasonable the cleric may have it even if your familiar doesn't grant it to you. It costs 100 xp (a pittance unless you're using it routinely), and you get up to your level in questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

Somewhat better that Contact Other Plane, but not exactly a map of the dragon's lair, is it?

Argh, reluctant to get into this as this is going to be be exactly the sort of Calvinball, Rock/Paper/Scissors games about hypothetical strategic play that I find abhorrent enough to post in this thread. It isn't going to go anywhere as its going to be AHAHAHAHAH BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS ad nauseum. I don't GM that way. I GM by the philosophy of Say yes or roll the dice and I never try to assume an adversarial posture with any of the classes/archetypes players in my game. You just unfortunately must do that with powerful spellcasters (specifically Batman Wizards) in 3.x for the game to not go wobbly.

If that's how my reply appears, apologies in advance. It is not my intent.

That being said. The first thing that comes to mind is to run a CIA Clairaudience/voyance operation on the local Lizard Man tribe in the marsh/bog/jungle that venerates the Black Dragon.

As a third level spell, definite accessibility advantage. "the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one", so a bit of adventuring, perhaps, to locate the tribe. If one doesn't exist, it seems likely there would be some suitable replacement, especially given the draconic ego, so "no one to find" would be poor GMing in my view. "Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. " The sensor is fixed in location - that could be an issue. At a minimum, though, you should be able to get a direction the dragon leaves in, and see at least some distance. Again, not exactly a map of its lair, and could take longer than Dandu's approach (but your spells are much lower level). I suspect this should give you enough to locate the lair's enrance, likely without notifying the dragon.

Comprehend Languages and Invisibility as required. Once they give up the goods about the location of the sinkhole entrance that leads to the lair of the dragon (where they would go and give offerings to placate the beast),

I like that - not sure on Invisibility in a swamp, though. I'd expect lizardmen to swim, and black dragons to take advantage of local water. Still you can likely fly invisibly.

I go there and casts Legend Lore to learn about the story of the great (non-wizard) heroes of yore confronting the dragon but mostly dieing on their climb down the glyph/trap/guard-laden sinkhole tunnel.

Assuming those are the legends. That said, there must be something (the spell description suggests the dragon is legendary, he's also been around some time, and I suspect you'd be taking similar precautions without the Lore spell warning you).

Now I'm on my disc (or likely just flying), with detect magic, avoiding obstacles, dispelling anything required, and floating down invisibly

Were I a black dragon, I would either lair underwater, or lair beyond a watery passage. You doubtless have Water Breathing, but I'm not liking your undetectability as a human-shaped bubble. That depends a lot on how one interprets invisibility, though. "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle)." Both detect magic and invisibility last 1 minute per level - how long does it take to get through the passage, concentrating to detect all the way?

PROBLEM: Concentration on Detect Magic "The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating."

Detect Magic's duration is concentration to a maximum 1 minute per level. It's down after the first Dispel. How many magical issues are you expecting? 1? 2? In fairness, the dragon doesn't have a host of magical abilities, so unless those LizardFolk had a spellcaster, or the dragon is especially canny/paranoid, it seems likely there aren't very many magical effects. If he is, well, that seems the stuff of legend (lore), so you should have some advance warning.

where at the bottom I render him quite "dead but doesn't know it yet" with Shivering Touch through Spectral Hand (with whatever means of buffed spell resistance penetration to ensure the check).

Now we get back to whether one can get line of effect on the dragon without getting within his 60' Blindsense. That depends on the lair. I assume your will save will make the DC 23 frightful presence meaingless. 21 Spell Resistance will take a bit of buffing. And we're back to one spell only - lets assume we're not using that book (or even that one spell). What replaces Shivering Touch as the sure thing?

Note that, if the dragon detects you (invisible is not inaudible, especially as you need to cast, so "you must be able to speak in a strong voice"), he can raise Darkness in a 70' radius as a spell-like ability. That hoops the Darkvision you were presumably using to avoid the need for a light source.

Or maybe Clairaudience/voyance does the trick. Maybe they actually go down into his/her lair to give him/her the offerings straight into his/her chamber so the great beast doesn't have to move. So I follow them invisibly while flying, navigate the tunnel the same way as before. Wait for them to leave and do my thing.

That immobile perception point is an issue, but identifying the chieftan makes Scry a viable choice. Still that water issue.

Overall, I'd say a good plan with a decent shot at success, but not immune to failure either. While I would agree that changing things after the fact smacks of unfairness, I'd also generally consider PC capabilities as I design an adventure to challenge the team, not just one member of that team.

A general spell list would be something like Silent Image, Mage Armor, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Gitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Solid Fog, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Teleport, Wall of Stone.

There are a few low level slots left unfilled for flexability.

If I were to go hunting dragons, I suppose I'd have fewer Glitterdists, Stinking Clouds and Black Tentacles, and focus on spells that hinder the dragon's mobility, buff the fighter, and, if possible, obtain a scroll of Shivering Touch so I can add that to my spellbook. I'd probably pick up Invisibility as well.

Yes, that is because I decided to post this on short notice. As you may notice, he has enough money left over to purchase additional spells. I take it you are suggesting Spectral Hand, Shivering Touch, Mirror Image, and Invisibility?

OK - I didn't dig that deep, but I definitely agree he could easily fill in more spells. I simply listed those ones as they've been repetitively picthed as the spells every wizard would surely possess. I'm thinking Shivering Touch has either been reduced to not be the clear go-to choice against any large enemy or banned outright in most games before you go dragonhunting, though.

It seems that Web and Solid Fog should do a good job of tying him down, then. I imagine Polymorphing the Fighter into, say, a War Troll and Enlarging the Cleric would allow them to do well against such an opponent.

I wonder which version of Polymorph we use - seems like that one changed every time the designers had a few minutes. I note you are not relying on going in solo, unlike some others. [I thought Web had been modified so huge strong creatures ripped through it, but clearly not - maybe that's Pathfinder.] Solid Fog would hold either way.

What stops the Dragon moving back into the fog, where you can't see him and he can Blindsense you, and spitting out acid every 1-4 rounds until you wisely retreat (line of acid should work when a ray would - arguable, I'd agree)? Other than the usual "all creatures in D&D want only to engage in a battle to the death and will pursue this regeardless of their INT and WIS scores"?

Ultimately, if we simply get rid of Shivering Touch, this sounds like a great battle where all the PC's participate - that's the object, isnt it?

Repeated for emphasis. Couldn't XP.

I could and did.
 

If that's how my reply appears, apologies in advance. It is not my intent.

You don't need to apologize. Its nothing inherent to you or your replies. Its just the nature of the beast of theorycrafting scenarios like this, proposing measures and countermeasures. We lack important resolution in our derived situations, we lack important resolution in our propositions, and we also lack extreme codification in the resources to be deployed which interface with the two.

Its just a sort of a weird Calvinball (which unfortunately it manifests in play sometimes much the same). But don't apologize. Your posts are thoughtful and measured and while I may not agree I always appreciate them.
 

Both reasonable choices. So let's look at what we get:

Contact Other Plane is online at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm. Note that all questions are answered “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer. That constrains the details quite a bit. You must make an INT check against DC 7 to 16 for each casting (that's a roll of 2 to 10 for your Wizard, I believe, depending on the contact). For every two caster levels, you may ask one question, so you get 5.

You have a % chance at a correct answer (and it's random if one word won't answer it). You may get "I dont know", a deliberate lie or a random answer. The odds depend on the DC of that INT check. Fail the check, and you can't cast spells for 1 - 5 weeks.

This actually seems pretty harsh for a 5th level spell - I had not read it that closely before!

How about Commune? It seems reasonable the cleric may have it even if your familiar doesn't grant it to you. It costs 100 xp (a pittance unless you're using it routinely), and you get up to your level in questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead.

The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If you lag, discuss the answers, or go off to do anything else, the spell ends.

Somewhat better that Contact Other Plane, but not exactly a map of the dragon's lair, is it?
I don't believe I ever said it was, but using COP and your familiar's Commune would allow you to establish the general location and general defenses with a few day's worth of effort, which is a great benefit.

Incidentally, I believe one can take 10 on the Int check with COP, which reduces the risk of losing spellcasting somewhat.


I wonder which version of Polymorph we use - seems like that one changed every time the designers had a few minutes.
The one in the PHB, I imagine.

I note you are not relying on going in solo, unlike some others.
If I have a party, I might as well make use of the fact. Using Planar Binding to get substitutes for a party is possible with enough work, but I see no reason to do extra work as my contention is not that the wizard can solo dragons, but that wizards are more powerful than fighters, in that they can contribute more to combat and non-combat situations.

What stops the Dragon moving back into the fog, where you can't see him and he can Blindsense you, and spitting out acid every 1-4 rounds until you wisely retreat (line of acid should work when a ray would - arguable, I'd agree)? Other than the usual "all creatures in D&D want only to engage in a battle to the death and will pursue this regeardless of their INT and WIS scores"?
I can imagine a few things that would stop the dragon from retreating into the Solid Fog and lobbing out acid, such as a polymorphed fighter charging into the fog. Alternatively, Resist Energy.
 

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