I don't see any reference to "good and noble king" in post 1403 in which @
Manbearcat describes the framing and resolution of the scene - the goal is described as "to get to and convince the king to act or sponsor/deputize them, or grant them resources/assets/hirelings". That is pretty standard, I think - the goal is to achieve a certain ingame outcome, not to achieve a metagame-level rewriting of the king's backstory.
Why would the noble Paladin and his righteous comrades seek the aid of a despot who pays off enemies with the lives of his people?
What is distinctive about the "indie" technique is that the complications and secret backstory - such as that the king has been trafficking with dragons - becomes relevant as a consequence of play, rather than serves as an input into action resolution via affecting fictional positioning in ways that the players aren't aware of.
Again, I find it odd that the king is discovered to routinely trade with dragons when their arrival and departure at his castle would seem obvious to the denizens of the area. Why are they not aware of such routine comings and goings? Looked at another way, if the PCs logically have some knowledge of the local area, do they have the fictional positioning to reasonably establish dragons coming and going?
I don't read it that way at all. Manbearcat doesn't tell us exactly what the player framed as his goal, but it looks to me like the goal was to drive the drake off by making it think it had been cursed. And that succeeded - the drake flew off, and didn't return within the context of the scene. But I would be gobsmacked if anyone involved in resolving that skill check thought that by succeeding at it the city had been saved from retribution.
manbearcat said:
Bluff - As the drake is preparing to tests its torn wings for flight, the Rogue saunters over and picks up one of its dislodged scales from the floor. He pulls a (useless) scroll from his belt and in the same ancient tongue, he threatens the drake with a powerful geas ritual of nslavement should the drake play a part in any retribution against the people of the city. He spends an Action Point and uses Resourceful Action (+ 5 due to roll), ensuring success.
As a rattled drake flies off . . .
Seems like the player would be quite justified believing his efforts were to prevent the Drake drawing retribution on the city. He spent resources to ensure success. I thought success meant success – full stop – and not success that later has adverse consequences like retribution on the city.
Your response seems to come from a very strong "mechanics as process simulation" perspective - so that if the character does something which is, within the fiction, tactically suboptimal, then you as a player have foregone your chance to have an impact on the fiction.
I can impact on the fiction without having that impact be the best possible one to achieve our goals. I do not believe that every attribute of the PC’s must be a strength in every situation. Weaknesses, flaws and foibles also contribute to making an interesting, fleshed out character.
As I said just above, this is up to the framing. If my PC is present in a scene then I would expect the GM to frame it so as to engage my PC. How I would respond would depend upon that framing. An obvious default would be to politely ask my comrade not to touch me, and to persuade the NPC in question of what is needed or expected.
Sure. And if the best tactical response is to engage in dialogue with the King and agree that we will not expose the fact that he is delivering babys to appease the dragons, will your Paladin stoop to that level as well? Perhaps the King also wants him to swear an oath by the Demon Prince Orcus to get the aid and assistance we set out to obtain. Will he do that as well? Or must there never be a situation framed where the Paladin will be placed at a disadvantage if he honours his principals and beliefs, so such choices must never exist in your game?
The PCs in my current game have saved a couple of major towns and their hinterland from goblin invasions, stopped gnolls running rampant through that same hinterland, helped some elves recover stolen idols from a black dragon, redeemed a fallen paladin, reestablished an abandoned temple, rescued a drow outpost from Orcus, and stopped Miska the Wolf-Spider's attempt at escaping from Carceri (which admittedly they also inadvertantly abetted somewhat), all for very little reward.
“reward” need not be cash. Did they advance their cause? Did they defend the innocent and uphold righteousness (assuming these are things their characters value)? Then they did this for their own reasons, just as the Glabrezu might grant a wish in exchange for causing evil and chaos, even if such evil and chaos aligns perfectly with the wizard’s desires. The wizard is getting his wish at no cost, because the Glabrezu gets what he wants out of it as well.
Example: in the past few years I've had two magic-users, mechanically pretty similar (very high Int, decent Dex and Cha, not much else) but vastly different in non-mechanical personality...which reflects in how they play:
- one is a pompous LN type who grew up in (equivalent of) a Roman culture - her goals are to help civilize the world by ridding it of monsters etc. and bringing good Roman ideals to all, and later to become the first woman in the Senate. In play this reflects where she will take the lead while others dither, cast in a controlled (sometimes even elegant) manner, and not tolerate dissension in the ranks.
- the other is a flighty CE type who is only with the party at all because a) her friends are, and b) adventuring gets you rich. She's a nasty <female-dog> to be around but tries not to piss off the party *too* much. Her long-term goal is to be the evil wizard that lower-level adventurers go out to kill, and to fund her activities off what she loots from said adventurers. In play her personality reflects in that nobody ever knows quite what she will do next but it'll probably involve fire at some point, and if a few innocents get hurt in the process: shrug "oops".
Good example of characters who are mechanically identical but play completely different.
And now we're into what I call (though perhaps redefining the term a bit from its usual use) powergaming, seeing D&D as chess-with-personality. This style of play, where everything is done perfectly and you always make the right choice (even without necessarily having the in-character knowledge to do so), just isn't any fun - it's too serious. It's also not very realistic. To me the fighter who glares into the eyes of the Umber Hulk - that's brilliant! And if he makes his save and fights the thing it's heroic too. And if he fails his save, well that's what experience is all about and he'll know better next time...assuming he survives.
Great term, that! There is, to me, an implicit onus on the GM to value role playing, not just tactical excellence. Just as I don’t expect PC’s will always choose perfect tactics, I expect the NPC opponents to also have personalities and blind spots – they, too, can make mistakes. If any tactical error means character loss or TPK, then PC's who are free to always select the best tactics will arise.
Obviously. And no matter what you do you'll have an impact. My argument is that you seem to want that impact to always be positive and controlled, where I say a negative or neutral or completely unexpected impact arising from doing the wrong thing can be just as entertaining. The only way to completely de-protagonize your character (in almost all situations) is to do nothing at all and just stand there quietly, and very few if any players will do this on a regular basis.
Agreed – you can play your character, or you can play a chess piece. Being an honour-bound Paladin is a good character and interesting to play. Being honour-bound only when it is to your benefit is not being honour-bound at all. What happened to “Indie play tests the characters’ beliefs”? Who was it that said “having principles is easy – it’s living up to them that’s hard”?
Why does it always have to be about you/your PC? Maybe the scene you're in has nothing to do with you at all to begin with, you've been put in it to see if you realize this and can restrain yourself from interfering until unexpected-action X happens.
Heaven forbid the spotlight shine on another PC for a while – or that the PC’s actually live in a world where things happen without their direct guidance and direction. If that’s what Indie players want, good for them. That being the case, I understand enough to know an Indie game holds no interest for me. Though I'm not sure that is everyone's Indie game - [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] seems to grasp that the character with great social skills will have more impact in social scenes, and the others may be relegated to secondary roles for a time.
Making tactical errors doesn't necessarily make you a better roleplayer. Repeating tactical errors definitely doesn't. Taking risks with your own PC is part of the game, and can be fun.
It's not so much fun when your PC, when confused, chops another PC's head off (I've seen similar incidents before). It's even less fun the second time it happens. This style of play can have severe downsides if there isn't DM fudging so that the flavourful clueless mistakes of the method actor don't directly cause a trail of PC deaths or even TPKs. Holding the foaming barbarian back so he doesn't eviscerate the recalcitrant chamberlain can be fun the first time, but with repetition without any learning or character development it quickly turns being a quirk of character to an annoyance, to making the PC too much of a liability to tolerate. I've seen PCs fired or killed by parties tired of the unnecessary risks taken by such PCs in the name of fun and role-playing. The hackneyed phrase "I was just playing my character" are typically the last words of many such PCs.
The other characters should play in character as well. And I agree that the characters must develop over time. That same berserker spent some time being very down on the wizard (a wild mage). He should go back to spell-school and learn to cast properly – his incompetence endangers us all! Until the day we debated how to get past two guard towers held by Bugbears and, while we’re debating, someone asks where the wizard went. Just about that time, he comes racing back in, half a dozen bugbears hot on his heels. He Webbed up one tower luring out the guards in the other, getting us past both - while we stood around and talked.
Now, had I been playing a lawful, tactics oriented warrior, he’s a loose cannon and an idiot. I wasn’t playing that character. The Berserker sees that, well, maybe the lad’s spells don’t always work perfectly, but he’s got courage and he doesn’t hesitate to risk his life for his teammates. You have a problem with him? Then you have a problem with ME.
Seriously, every style of play has strengths and weaknesses. Used "incorrectly", any style of play can lead to issues within a game. The posters here have developed their play and refereeing styles in reaction to the best and the worst they have seen over their years. The issue being one persons best may well be another's undesirable or worst. We value different game goals and our choice of DM tools and tactics reflect that.
A great summary.
I totally understand your point. But, there is the practical end of things as well. Not including a player in a scene might be perfectly okay, or it might not be.
For example, I play 3 hour sessions 1/week. Say a given scene lasts 40 minutes (totally random number). Excluding my character from that scene cuts me out of a significant portion of play time for that week. Yes, I can certainly sit quietly and observe, but, RPG's aren't really a spectator sport. I wouldn't really criticize a player for being a bit put out when he's sitting on his hands for a large chunk of a session because the DM framed the scene in such a way that his character just can't contribute.
I remember some years ago playing in a "Lost Tomb" type scenario where the tomb was filled with constructs and summoned elementals. The rogue basically sat on his thumbs for three sessions because he just couldn't contribute significantly to the adventure, outside of the occasional Search and Remove Traps roll. Nothing to talk to, and no sneak attack damage to any of the opponents.
I really think this was a mistake on the part of the DM. He should have changed the opponents in the adventure to include that player, not exclude.
I think you could not contribute as effectively as you wanted in the manner you wanted. You could still attack and have some impact, just not as much as you want. Just as flanking allows you to Sneak Attack some opponents, it also gives your teammates a bonus to hit, so that's a further contribution. You could certainly use the Aid Another action to contribute to party success.
But you could not benefit from your Sneak Attack, so you look to have chosen to sit on your thumbs for three sessions rather than think outside the box and contribute to the extent possible in other ways. The GM did not exclude you – you excluded yourself. And, for a change, the fighter got to be the guy inflicting the most damage on the enemy, rather than being in the rogue's shadow.