Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

The problem with sorcerors is that they just don't have a topline for casting.

At odd numbered levels a specialist wizard should have three spells per day of the highest level they can cast. The sorceror can't cast any spells of this level. And only know two spells at the highest level they can cast (and can only cast one spell more per day than a specialist wizard). The sorceror quite simply gets crushed on raw power.

At even levels things are closer. The sorceror has no flexibility in their top level spells (and can cast no more than the wizard can). And one level below they only know two spells - and can only cast one more per day than the wizard. Wizard wins on flexibility (by lots), sorceror on power (by a little). The only thing the sorceror has the advantage on is low level spells.

So half the time it's close. Half the time it's the wizard by a country mile.
 

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I haven't found it an issue. A wizard I played a couple of years ago had a 10 AC and 50 HP at level 17 and didn't particularly need to worry (saves were pretty low as well).
Really? Seems to me like that's a full PA one-hit kill waiting to happen if anyone ever gets remotely near the wizard.

IME it's a lot better to spend on items rather than casting all your spells towards harm avoidance and living paranoid. Heck, even with the items, a secret lair, and all the perks of high-level spellcasting, I've still found playing a spellcaster a nerve-wracking experience.
 

The rules for item creation seem to indicate that you can always share prerequisites. The wording of the feats always is about "you" meeting the prerequisite or knowing the spell, but the rules for item creation say this:

I suppose it could be interpreted differently, but the feat statement would seem to be modified by the caveat in the item creation rules, above. This is supported by the identical language from the various creation feats. For scrolls, potions, wands, and staffs, that verbiage is as follows:

The only difference between that and the other items (rods, wondrous items, weapons, armor) is the addition of the phrase, "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the [item]." (Oddly, rings have different verbiage.) This distinction is likely because there are some items from that set that do not have spells as a prerequisite, whereas potions, scrolls, and the like all have spells as prerequisites. Those prerequisites still seem to fall under the umbrella of the parenthetical "... access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed."

Though the quoted text is from the online SRD, I found similar language in my perusal of my (3.5) DMG.

My recollection is a distinction between spell completion and other items, but perhaps the clarification is in Pathfinder rather than in 3.5. There is another difference between spell completion and other items, however. The material components and xp costs must be incurred for spell completion items, while for other items, the creator "need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item".

The scroll rules are more specific that "The act of writing triggers the scroll", so what does the person with the Scribe Scroll feat do, if they do not in fact write the scroll?

Here we go - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

Any potion, scroll, or wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. For potions and scrolls, the creator must expend the material component or pay the XP cost when creating the item.

For a wand, the creator must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.

This does not apply to other items, and seems to imply that the creator must be the caster - no one else can pay the xp cost of the spell.

Further, read the text of the feat. You may Brew a potion "of any 3rd level of lower spell that you know", scribe a scroll "of any spell that you know", and create a wand "of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know". The other crafting feats allow you to create a relevant item "whose prerequisites you meet", and do not refer to you specifically knowing spells. Thus, the ability to provide a spell you don't know can meet the prerequisites of the feats other than potions, scrolls and wands. The last three mention specifically knowing the spell, and not meeting prerequisites.

I agree there is some lack of clarity, leaving this in the feat but not specifying it in the crafting rules. However, we are back to interpretations that, if they do not clearly contradict the rules, are clearly the most favourable interpretation possible to the spellcaster.

How is casting time a "heavy handed restriction"? The player knows what it is, and plans and declares actions accordingly.

Sorry, I should have put the phrase in quotes, as pretty much every read of the rules that does not favour the spellcaster to the maximum extent possible (or even override the clear words in favour of the caster) has been indicated by posters other than yourself to be "heavy handed restrictions" on the spellcasters. Still, while I would suggest making all spells have a minimum 10 minute casting time would clearly move the balance in combat to the fighter, it would presumably be viewed as a very heavy-handed manner of implementing balance.

To the specific issues, I would say that Weather Sense and Weather Control should be balanced exactly against one another if each requires an equal dedication of character resources. If each requires, say, one skill point per level and nothing else to max out, they should be of equal utility.

I would go further: it requires abandoning the module. The only support that White Plume Mountain provides to the "ally with Keraptis" scenario is providing a name. The whole rationale of the module is for the players to take their PCs in and beat the dungeon.

I suggest there is no question that no module ever written can cover every possible reaction or approach by the players and, as such, full player freedom equates to being willing to modify or abandon parts of, or even the entirety of, the module. There is an aspect of railroading in any module. It is simply a question of how much. The module would be just as abandoned if the players decided they weren't motivated by the promise of the loot in the dungeon, and went looking for other work. There is a general presumption of widely shared motivations of PC's in pretty much every module, although more recent modules tend to suggest a broader array of possible hooks and/or provide guidance to players to create characters who will be motivated to participate in the module.

As a longstanding example, how many groups prohibit evil characters, at least in part because the scenarios will involve a battle against evil? How would the Giants modules play out if the players desired to join (or lead) the giants, or offered their services to Llolth? I think most modules provide one or more expected adversaries to the PC's and don't typically envision the PC's deciding to ally with those expected adversaries (much less successfully forge such an alliance). Doubtless there are occasional exceptions, much like there is the occasional module designed for solo play, which minimizes combat and/or is designed for Evil characters, but the norm is to provide adversaries to the PC's in some form or another.
 

Really? Seems to me like that's a full PA one-hit kill waiting to happen if anyone ever gets remotely near the wizard.

IME it's a lot better to spend on items rather than casting all your spells towards harm avoidance and living paranoid. Heck, even with the items, a secret lair, and all the perks of high-level spellcasting, I've still found playing a spellcaster a nerve-wracking experience.

That's certainly understandable and there certainly is risk, but I have found it's very minimal. There are a nice selection of immediate action spells that get you out of danger or increase your odds of success if something unexpected happens. For instance, a spell like blink is significantly better than an extremely high AC, energy resistance is better than a high reflex save, etc. Swapping your familiar out for an immediate action teleport also works nicely to avoid melee attacks (assuming your a conjuration specialist). The 4 heart spells from Complete Mage are pretty useful too, but all 4 don't come into play until 10th level.

I suppose it all comes down to how you have fun playing a wizard. For me it's about utility. I hate wasting spells on damage, unless it's a one shot on the big bad (and even then it's rare unless I can increase the odds of success significantly enough in my favor. I try to avoid spells with saving throws).
 

I always allowed it to be traded for Collegiate Wizard (can't remember if that was a by the book trade or not).

It's not. It's also a feat that I am very glad my players forgot about.

Being a wizard is so financially draining that it's almost essential.

Maybe. I am a big fan of Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane, Page 48) and Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion, Page 52). Combined I have access to nearly every arcane spell in the game. 750gp upfront plus 30gp/month is not overly draining at 6th level and above. Instead of buying/scribing scrolls to gain utility, I just have utility. This is partly why I disagree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s statements on Scribe Scroll. I can do everything he can do, and I get to act first more often.
 

It's not. It's also a feat that I am very glad my players forgot about.
It puzzles me when people talking about relative power don't even talk about the powerful stuff. To me, Collegiate Wizard is one of the best feats a wizard can take. +2 to Knowledge Arcana is pretty useful, and to save hundreds (or even thousands) of gp per level on top of that is quite impressive.

Maybe. I am a big fan of Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane, Page 48) and Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion, Page 52). Combined I have access to nearly every arcane spell in the game. 750gp upfront plus 30gp/month is not overly draining at 6th level and above. Instead of buying/scribing scrolls to gain utility, I just have utility. This is partly why I disagree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s statements on Scribe Scroll. I can do everything he can do, and I get to act first more often.
Those aren't bad options (though I don't see that Spontaneous Divination gets you access to any more spells; it was errata's to make this clear that it just lets you cast the ones you know without memorizing them). Collegiate is from level 1 though and MotAO is not until 6th, so there's still a lot of utility there during those low levels.

Don't get me wrong. I'd take Improved Initiative over Scribe Scroll too.
 

It puzzles me when people talking about relative power don't even talk about the powerful stuff. To me, Collegiate Wizard is one of the best feats a wizard can take. +2 to Knowledge Arcana is pretty useful, and to save hundreds (or even thousands) of gp per level on top of that is quite impressive.

Those aren't bad options (though I don't see that Spontaneous Divination gets you access to any more spells; it was errata's to make this clear that it just lets you cast the ones you know without memorizing them). Collegiate is from level 1 though and MotAO is not until 6th, so there's still a lot of utility there during those low levels.

Don't get me wrong. I'd take Improved Initiative over Scribe Scroll too.

Collegiate Wizard is a decent feat. I don't always take it, it depends if there's another wizard in the party or not (which often times there is with a 6 player game). Money isn't usually a big factor for me. It's still a decent choice.

I'm not a fan of MotAO. It doesn't improve spells per a day and only gets you the 2 spells per a level that you lost by taking a prestige class (or 4 if you have CW). The spell pool has never impressed me, I'd rather have scrolls which don't use up my spell slots. Plus the cost of entry (prerequisites aren't ones I usually take and don't see them as that great, but that's my own opinion there).

Improved Initiative is a descent feat and there's no reason you can't just take it anyway without giving up scribe scroll. I usually don't care if I go first or not so I rarely take it, but that has nothing to do with the advantages of going first and mainly just my own style of playing.

Now a fun PF archetype is the scrollmaster, but mainly for the flavor of it. Hitting someone with a scroll is just cool, but it's a slow build until you get the real benefit which is casting scrolls using your stats at 10th level.

Anyway, I like scribe scroll but for it's utility, not for it's spell book application. In some campaigns it might be more necessary that others, depending on player access to spells.
 

There is a general presumption of widely shared motivations of PC's in pretty much every module

<snip>

As a longstanding example, how many groups prohibit evil characters

<snip>

I think most modules provide one or more expected adversaries to the PC's and don't typically envision the PC's deciding to ally with those expected adversaries
This is why I prefer modules that take a different approach - eg P2, which has reasonable advice on how to handle PC alliances with various factions.

This is an expression of my more general preference for the players to choose their PCs' adversaries.
 

It puzzles me when people talking about relative power don't even talk about the powerful stuff. To me, Collegiate Wizard is one of the best feats a wizard can take. +2 to Knowledge Arcana is pretty useful, and to save hundreds (or even thousands) of gp per level on top of that is quite impressive.

Those aren't bad options (though I don't see that Spontaneous Divination gets you access to any more spells; it was errata's to make this clear that it just lets you cast the ones you know without memorizing them). Collegiate is from level 1 though and MotAO is not until 6th, so there's still a lot of utility there during those low levels.

Don't get me wrong. I'd take Improved Initiative over Scribe Scroll too.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing on Collegiate Wizard - it's a fantastic feat.

Spontaneous Divination saves me spell slots. I can memorize more broadly useful combat spells, and reassess as the game progresses.

I'm not a fan of MotAO. It doesn't improve spells per a day and only gets you the 2 spells per a level that you lost by taking a prestige class (or 4 if you have CW). The spell pool has never impressed me, I'd rather have scrolls which don't use up my spell slots. Plus the cost of entry (prerequisites aren't ones I usually take and don't see them as that great, but that's my own opinion there).

Swings and roundabouts. My point is: There are more ways to optimize and play a wizard than just taking Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item.

Improved Initiative is a descent feat and there's no reason you can't just take it anyway without giving up scribe scroll. I usually don't care if I go first or not so I rarely take it, but that has nothing to do with the advantages of going first and mainly just my own style of playing.

I place a high valuation on acting first; it allows me to dictate the nature of the engagement. It's the competitive gamer in me. :D

Now a fun PF archetype is the scrollmaster, but mainly for the flavor of it. Hitting someone with a scroll is just cool, but it's a slow build until you get the real benefit which is casting scrolls using your stats at 10th level.

Please sir, tell me more! I am not as knowledgeable on Pathfinder.
 

Please sir, tell me more! I am not as knowledgeable on Pathfinder.

You give up Arcane Bond (your familiar or ability to cast a bonus spell per a day) and your 10th level bonus feat to gain the ability to use scrolls as weapons and shields and the 10th level ability to cast scrolls using your ability scores, feats, and caster level. You basically save a crap load of money on scrolls since you can use the minimum caster level required to cast the spell to scribe the scroll and then your own caster level to cast the spell.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/cor...etypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/scrollmaster

It's not the greatest swap in the world, but it makes using scrolls pretty good and flavorful.
 

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