Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[N'raac]

The difference is that bows are equipment that can be purchased or crafted. If the dragon has a means of acquiring Scent though templates or whatnot, that's entirely fair by the rules. Simply tacking on the Scent ability, however, is not.

Dragons have a lot of feat slots available to them. I don't see Scent on their "favoured" list, I believe due to Blindsense being a standard ability. I do not see anything in the Lizardfolk writeup that suggests the standard ones can, by the rules, learn to use bows rather than simple weapons. They do have a feat free, I think, so I guess that's one option.

If you think time is an issue, note that my example wizard has a lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. 20 minutes should be enough for going in, snatching a lizardfolk, and getting out again.

Depends how far you want him to go, whether he's accosted by any of his fellows, etc., but 20 minutes is at least a reasonable period of time.

I would think having a dragon flying out of his lair and through the 5x5 space the wizard occupies in the sky full of 5x5 spaces in the ten or so minutes the wizard is there to be far more unlikely and contrived than liardfolk learning archery.

I compare it more to the scouts, hunters and guards all having javelins, but bows suddenly appearing once the players make a plan assuming they have no bows which is based on evidence. If the scout had a bow and a quiver, then we have no issue, to my mind. But I'm also OK with the Dragon taking Scent. And how does the PC know Dragons never have a great sense of smell anyway? Do wizards also get free online access to the SRD?

IWhat? No, you do the simple thing and order your possessed Lizardfolk to walk off and bind and gag himself so you can teleport him out of there.

OK, first, I don't think it's that easy to bind yourself. How many ranks does your wizard have in Rope Use? You also need that possessed lizard to remain within range of your real body (200 to 300 feet at 10 - 20 level), find the rope, tie himself up(!) in some unnoticed space you can readily access later, in the 20 minutes before you turn visible and start drifting back to earth? I'd have to say probably, but not necessarily. Would it work that easy in the fiction? Maybe, maybe not. The same certainly applies here.

As the plan is to capture the possessed lizardfolk, none of this is relevant. You will forgive me for not addressing it.

The one aspect I see remaining is that the Lizardman is not a willing target of your Teleport, so you need to get him somewhere you feel secure removing his gag in order to question him.

What do you think of my actual plan which is somewhat simpler?

In my games, one of two results would occur. "Nothing goes wrong; you are outside the Lizard village with a tied and bound Lizardfolk. What now?", or something arises in the course of the plan and we play it out. To my mind, the most likely results there are still either success or escape - the likelihood the 10th level wizard is captured or killed by the lizard tribe is slim to none. That said, I'm not of the "taking prisoners is foolish - defeat means death" mindset either.

I would not worry. The dragon cannot end his movement in the fighter's square.

Is it the Dragon's move once you cast the spell? I believe he used a standard action and committed to a move action, after which you cast your Readied spell to interrupt (ie end) his move. Pretty minor issue in any case - it won't be "Dragon falls, everybody dies".

They split the party.

True, poor fools - they keep making that same mistake, don't they?

Today, I learned that Navy SEALS are wargaming munchkins.

I'd say they're human beings - and as such, they will still make suboptimal decisions on occasion. Much of raining soldiers, though, does involve dehumanizing the enemy, or so I am told.

My counterquestion - are (or should) all adventurers Navy SEALS, or is a variety of personalities, backgrounds, etc. preferable? The Wargame answer is "All trained, ruthless combatants willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission". The storyteller/indie answer typically isn't.

@pemerton I wouldn't call myself a storyteller. I do see how that might add up in my posts here.

The I win button often requires perfect preparation and that is at best rare. I say it is rare because it requires a specific suite of abilities to overcome obstacle X and all too often that perfect preparation is assumed or portrayed as inevitable. Character resources are limited and that seems to be ignored frequently when comparisons such as these are made.

That is the assumption - [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] gave us an actual character, which allows an actual assessment of his capabilities at any given time to be made. I suspect he would have a spell load heavy on duplicate Fly, Invisibility and escaping spells to go in after that Lizardman, so he could get out if things went wrong. He'd switch those to invade the dragon's lair, of course. But he doesn't lay claim to every spell in the Compendium plus a few extra, and any magic item he should choose to have in his possession. This allows a more reasonable evaluation.

I definitely think he could meet the challenge of locating the dragon's lair. That does not, however, meet the challenge of infiltrating it and defeating the dragon. And, as he has said, he doesn't plan on doing that alone.

I also think capturing a lizard man, or otherwise locating the dragon lair, without magic is possible.

I can see how "rocks fall" is believed to be what I was getting at, it's not. I was pointing to the fact that Wizards often get a pass when it comes to being a target.
a) Because the fighter can survive targeting, (AC, or HP)
b) Because a fighter is more likely to make the scary fort save
c) Because a failed will save is not going to kill the fighter (too often)
d) Because the fighter that is not disabled by spells can inflict serious damage (and that is hard to ignore)

This also comes to NPC spell selection and utilization - how often does that NPC mage have, and cast, some blasting spells the PC's would never deign to carry? When do they duplicate PC tactics?

 

[Dandu]

Dragons have a lot of feat slots available to them. I don't see Scent on their "favoured" list, I believe due to Blindsense being a standard ability. I do not see anything in the Lizardfolk writeup that suggests the standard ones can, by the rules, learn to use bows rather than simple weapons. They do have a feat free, I think, so I guess that's one option.

Is Scent available as a feat?

Anyways, lizardfolk can also take levels in classes to gain longbow proficiency. Or use crossbows, which are simple weapons. Either way, they've got ranged weapons.

I compare it more to the scouts, hunters and guards all having javelins, but bows suddenly appearing once the players make a plan assuming they have no bows which is based on evidence. If the scout had a bow and a quiver, then we have no issue, to my mind. But I'm also OK with the Dragon taking Scent. And how does the PC know Dragons never have a great sense of smell anyway? Do wizards also get free online access to the SRD?

Wizards get Knowledge: Arcana, which explicitly covers Dragons.

OK, first, I don't think it's that easy to bind yourself. How many ranks does your wizard have in Rope Use?

You have made a great argument for buying some manacles and dropping them on the ground for the possessed lizardfolk to walk up to.

You also need that possessed lizard to remain within range of your real body (200 to 300 feet at 10 - 20 level), find the rope, tie himself up(!) in some unnoticed space you can readily access later, in the 20 minutes before you turn visible and start drifting back to earth? I'd have to say probably, but not necessarily. Would it work that easy in the fiction? Maybe, maybe not. The same certainly applies here.

To recap, the original plan was to:
1. Cast Fly.
2. Teleport around village in the air.
3. Place restraints on the ground behind some trees.
4. Possess lizardfolk.
5. Have lizardfolk walk to secluded area and bind and gag himself.
6. Teleport home.

Is this guaranteed success? No. But it's a lot more feasible than the Fighter's solo plan, which is to wait around in a swamp on the off chance that a lizardfolk ambles by, or to take on an an entire tribe.

The one aspect I see remaining is that the Lizardman is not a willing target of your Teleport, so you need to get him somewhere you feel secure removing his gag in order to question him.

Very true. I suppose the best thing to do would be to have the lizardman drink sleeping potion before depossessing the body, or to find a debuff to cast on him before depossession that would either make him willing or unconscious, such as Bestow Curse.

If all else fails, abandon teleport in favor of Polymorphing the wizard into a creature with good Str and escaping on a Phantom Steed with the capture.

In my games, one of two results would occur. "Nothing goes wrong; you are outside the Lizard village with a tied and bound Lizardfolk. What now?", or something arises in the course of the plan and we play it out. To my mind, the most likely results there are still either success or escape - the likelihood the 10th level wizard is captured or killed by the lizard tribe is slim to none. That said, I'm not of the "taking prisoners is foolish - defeat means death" mindset either.

Well, assuming success, I would have enough time to let the Imp use Suggestion. Or I could bring the lizardfolk to the party and let them figure some way of convincing it.

If the Wizard were to use a spell, and Enchantment was banned, I imagine Necromancy's Bestow Curse could be useful.

My counterquestion - are (or should) all adventurers Navy SEALS, or is a variety of personalities, backgrounds, etc. preferable? The Wargame answer is "All trained, ruthless combatants willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission". The storyteller/indie answer typically isn't.

There's a reason the military doesn't put pastry chefs on the front lines.

If there is an actual conflict, those that survive and thrive will be trained, ruthless combatants. It is entirely reasonable for people to play such characters if they are in a party that goes raiding dragon's lairs and smashing orc hordes with any regularity.

 

[Manbearcat]

Just FYI that I can't xp @N'raac nor @Dandu but its been a good discussion with you guys.

 

[Aenghus]

I think there's a survivor effect involved here. Wizards survive to mid or high level more often in games where they are effective. Wizards are incredibly vulnerable in all ways except magic. Making wizards effective often involves lots of planning, and complex spell and magic item interactions. Harsh rulings against wizards can result in their deaths due to their vulnerability . The players of wizards benefit from learning their referees adjudication patterns and adapting to them, so their plans don't get immediately shot down.

And i think the lines between a dead wizard, an effective wizard and an overpowered wizard are very narrow indeed.

 

[N'raac]

Is Scent available as a feat?

I may be thinking Pathfinder. In any case, a Dragon has blindsense, and scent would seem a poor feat choice with that in mind. The Black is likely even worse to take scent, which is less useful (in standard form) underwater.

Anyways, lizardfolk can also take levels in classes to gain longbow proficiency. Or use crossbows, which are simple weapons. Either way, they've got ranged weapons.

I see no issue with them having ranged weapons, unless we are strictly bound to the MM specifics. "This whole tribe has character levels" seems no more consistent with the MM rules than a Dragon with Scent. In my game, if some dragons have scent, a sufficient KN: Arcana roll should provide a tipoff in that regard. But it seems like there are a LOT of useful tidbits one could know about any specific dragon type, and we're down to 1/5 points we succeed by.

To recap, the original plan was to:
1. Cast Fly.
2. Teleport around village in the air.
3. Place restraints on the ground behind some trees.
4. Possess lizardfolk.
5. Have lizardfolk walk to secluded area and bind and gag himself.
6. Teleport home.

I thought you were Invisible too. You certainly have enough spells to be invisible.

Is this guaranteed success? No. But it's a lot more feasible than the Fighter's solo plan, which is to wait around in a swamp on the off chance that a lizardfolk ambles by, or to take on an an entire tribe.

So the wizard can find a nearby secluded area for a lizardfolk to manacle itself no more than 200' or so away from where he Magic Jars in the air by the village, encounters no issues that compromise invisibility, has no time issues with his spells, cast how many Teleports with no errors, leave his floating body behind with no risk, and nothing notices his verbal components through all this, but if the fighter is waiting some distance down a trail to ambush a lizardfolk, one will never pass that way? It really does seem we are stacking the deck against the fighter.

Very true. I suppose the best thing to do would be to have the lizardman drink sleeping potion before depossessing the body, or to find a debuff to cast on him before depossession that would either make him willing or unconscious, such as Bestow Curse.

Even unconscious at best means you need a 200 to 250 lb maximum load. That's a 15 - 17 STR. Escaping with the captive is probably your better bet. Mind you, I now question whether the fighter can add 200 - 250 pounds of Lizard if he has to carry it. Looks like prisoner or travois.

If all else fails, abandon teleport in favor of Polymorphing the wizard into a creature with good Str and escaping on a Phantom Steed with the capture,

but the steed's carrying capacity is 10 lb per caster level. At least it can water walk, but you need to be 20th level and find a skinny lizardfolk.

Well, assuming success, I would have enough time to let the Imp use Suggestion. Or I could bring the lizardfolk to the party and let them figure some way of convincing it.

That should at least make it willing to be teleported. Presumably the local innkeeper has no issues with you bringing back a manacled LizardFriend for the evening (or the fighter doing so).

There's a reason the military doesn't put pastry chefs on the front lines.

If there is an actual conflict, those that survive and thrive will be trained, ruthless combatants. It is entirely reasonable for people to play such characters if they are in a party that goes raiding dragon's lairs and smashing orc hordes with any regularity.

That's back to campaign style, but I don't see every PC in every game as a ruthless mercenary.

In any case, I think the wizard can likely get a Lizard prisoner and get the location of the dragon lair (if he can't, neither can the fighter). He doesn't have a keyed map with the full layout, any traps, etc., which was the issue I started off rebutting.

 

[pemerton]

What is the difference between the "storyteller" approach and railroading?

The response to this question is contentious, and I think very playstyle dependent.

My impression - from reading posts, from knowing that Paizo sells a lot of Adventure Paths, etc - is that there are many D&Ders who play games in which the "BBEG" is determined from the start of the campaign by the GM. Is that a railroad? Or is that the players agreeing to join in with the story th GM has in mind?

Different players and different tables will answer the question differently.

"Story" is also variable across tables. Some posters vehemently insist that story is nothing more than the retelling of the events of play after the event, and that any decision by the GM in the course of play that takes story into account is railroading.

In my own game, I prefer that the questions of who are the PCs allies, and who their true enemies, be worked out in the course of play as a result of player choices (so in my current 4e campaign it turned out that the players are allied with duergar and with Kas, which weren't results expected at the start of the campaign); I find the BBEG style of game too railroady. But in my game, also, the events that occur to the PCs, and the surprises that they stumble upon, are inserted by me as GM not on the basis of random tables or setting-verisimilitude considerations, but on the basis of "story" considerations. So, for instance, when the PCs in a recent session explored an abandoned oubliette on an Abyssal layer where all lost things come to rest, and I had no notes on what might be in it, I had to quickly make something up - and I decided that it was the oubliette in which the soul of Elidyr, last king of Nerath, had been trapped. I made this decision becasue the fate of Elidyr and of Nerath has been a recurring theme in the game, and therefore by framing the oubliette in these terms I would keep pushing those themese forward and make the players (via their PCs) make choices about them. (In this case, the upshot was a struggle with an Exarch of the Raven Queen/url] over the fate of Elidyr's soul.)

What I've just described about my own game is "indie style" 101. But I know that there are posters on these boards who regard it as railroading to run a game in this sort of way, in which the PCs (and players) can't escape from but rather are constantly pushed by the GM to confront the thematic issues that their past play has given rise to. It's cetainly not sandboxing.

Railroading is forcing any character action to be overruled if it doesn't serve the overall predetermined plot. Ranging from "To the north, east, and south are unpassable mountains that block uncrossable deserts" to "Charm person can't work on the boss fight."

A "storyteller" approach means that encounters will be reframed to enforce a generally desired balance of overall spotlight time and character effectiveness. Wizards who buff a lot will start to face enemies with Dispel Magic. Conjurers will keep facing enemies with scrolls of Protection from Evil. Barbarians with power attack will face enemies who can fly. Etc, etc.

That's the sort of thing I had in mind, yes.

 

[Dandu]

I thought you were Invisible too. You certainly have enough spells to be invisible.

Yes, I forgot to include that.

So the wizard can find a nearby secluded area for a lizardfolk to manacle itself no more than 200' or so away from where he Magic Jars in the air by the village,

We're in a swamp. Secluded areas are kind of common in swamps.

encounters no issues that compromise invisibility

Feel free to suggest some.

has no time issues with his spells

I think we have agreed that the spells used either last or can be made to last long enough?

Cast how many Teleports with no errors

Two at most.

leave his floating body behind with no risk

What are the risks?

and nothing notices his verbal components through all this

They are free to make listen checks, but the distance penalties do not help their +0 listen modifier.

but if the fighter is waiting some distance down a trail to ambush a lizardfolk, one will never pass that way? It really does seem we are stacking the deck against the fighter.

I never said that one would never pass the fighter's way, only that the chances of that happening in a timely manner are much lower than the chances of finding one though deliberate effort. Because you're essentially waiting around in a swamp for someone from a presumably secluded tribe to pass your way.

At a minimum, a wizard can use the fighter's tactic of waiting around for something to happen. He just happens to have many other effective options, which I am trying to illustrate.

Even unconscious at best means you need a 200 to 250 lb maximum load. That's a 15 - 17 STR. Escaping with the captive is probably your better bet. Mind you, I now question whether the fighter can add 200 - 250 pounds of Lizard if he has to carry it. Looks like prisoner or travois.

The fighter will easily have greater than 17 STR at level 10 and be capable of carrying the lizard away.

but the steed's carrying capacity is 10 lb per caster level. At least it can water walk, but you need to be 20th level and find a skinny lizardfolk.

The phantom steed "can be ridden only by you or by the one person for whom you specifically created the mount" and "It can bear its rider’s weight plus up to 10 pounds per caster level."

Would it be unreasonable of me to create the Phantom Steed for the captive, then order it to carry the captive away?

That should at least make it willing to be teleported. Presumably the local innkeeper has no issues with you bringing back a manacled LizardFriend for the evening (or the fighter doing so).

Presumably, the local innkeeper is smart enough not to issue orders to the four baddest asses in the area.

That's back to campaign style, but I don't see every PC in every game as a ruthless mercenary.

Dungeons and Dragons is a game about going into other people's houses, killing them, and taking their stuff because they have green skin and the party does not. Seriously, there is no way to advance in levels except by gaining XP, which are predominantly gained through combat.

 

[Campbell]

I'd argue that there is a continuum of the use of GM Force of which railroading is at the extreme end. How willing are you to use rules interpretation, setting manipulation, NPC characterization, and GM cues to shape the flow of events in game? When does scene framing stop and play begin? I'd argue for most story tellers that they seek to influence, but not determine the overall sequence of events. I think if you look at the GM advice contained in most 90s RPGs you'll have a pretty good idea of the conceits of the play style. It's GM as invisible hand - the wizard behind the curtain.

Of course, I'm not blind to the fact that my own GMing style involves a decent amount of GM force in framing the scene, but I attempt to keep it relatively transparent, and as free of agenda as possible.

 

[Manbearcat]

Wanted to clarify a few things regarding "Indie" versus "Storyteller" as there seems to be a wee bit of confusion. The two are very distinct from one another in many ways but the below might help you identify your preference.

As much as anything else this tenet is central to the GMing ethos of Indie gaming (captured in DitV "How to GM"):

Drive Play Toward Conflict - Every moment of play, roll dice or say yes.

Contrast that with 5e (and 2e era) Storyteller GMing ethos:

Rulings Not Rules - You don't need to know the rules.

From a simple ethos comparison, you can hopefully extrapolate how the two perceive the importance of or the negative effects of:

- System importance overall
- Mechanical transparency/codification vs opacity/open-endedness
- Tightness and predictability of the action resolution mechanics (specifically the math when framing challenges)
- GM role/techniques specifically with respect to the areas of the percentage of session dedicated to framing and resolving conflicts (vs percentage spent on freeform roleplay, expository dialogue/information dump, and/or conflict neutral transition scenes), and the role the GM plays as arbiter of the outcomes of those conflicts and the resultant trajectory/evolution of the narrative.

Whichever of those ethos above rings true to you more will tell you where you come down on Indie vs Storyteller and the distinctions within the specific areas below that should comport with where you are on that continuum.

 

[Dandu]

Rulings Not Rules - You don't need to know the rules.

I personally find this somewhat troubling, as it means that I, as a player, have very little idea what I'm getting into when I sit down at the table, and have to trust that the DM knows what he's doing.