Finally got the 4e core books

[BryonD]

Condescend much?

Lately? Yeah.
I used to think of gamers as, on average, an impressive group.
Over the last year, not so much. There are still very solid subgroups. But my illusions of the group overall have been removed.

I played 1e for 8-10 years. After about three, I was able to wing entire campaigns. I've been playing 3e for about 8. It still takes me an hour or more to stat up a good encounter.

I can easily spend over an hour. Or I can go on the fly. Every time I spend a big chunk of time, it is because I decided up front that it would be both fun and the value at the end would merit it. It ain't work.

If 3e happens to mesh better with the way you think, then I'm happy for you.

For myself, I don't have time to get "experienced enough".

Understood. No problem.

 

[BryonD]

No, it was a "chore" and "work" because the 3e encounter/NPC/monster generation system was badly designed, and hard to use by RAW. Adding class levels (especially spellcasing levels) or advancing a monster was a royal PITA. When the system by RAW requires you to spend more time statting out adversaries than it does designing the adventure, plot, or mapping, then the system is the problem, not the DM or his experience with the system.

4e fixes this, and thank the gods it does. We now have approximate numbers to shoot for when designing NPCs and monsters, and can flex those standards back and forth a bit to get the end result we want easily, and without an insane amount of work. BIG improvement over the clunky old system.

Again, you are confusing your limitations and preferences as universal truths.

 

[Steely Dan]

Again, you are confusing your limitations and preferences as universal truths.

We can all see where you're coming from, but why do you have to be so passive-aggressive while trying to get your point across?

I mean, come on, no one is going to take kindly to being told about their limitations. For the record, I prefer to DM 4th Ed, but I also used to enjoy spending 11 hours tweaking my Half-Fey Tiefling Fighter 2/Incarnate 11/Necrocarnate 5 BBEG.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We can all see where you're coming from, but why do you have to be so passive-aggressive while trying to get your point across?

I mean, come on, no one is going to take kindly to being told about their limitations. For the record, I prefer to DM 4th Ed, but I also used to enjoy spending 11 hours tweaking my Half-Fey Tiefling Fighter 2/Incarnate 11/Necrocarnate 5 BBEG.

I enjoyed this kind of stuff, too, for a while. Until I noticed that after all those 11h of twinking, my villains, once confronted to attack the NPCs, still died in a few rounds. All the cool stuff I did was .. not really that impressive. And I could have spent the time doing something else, like fleshing out more of his personality, or just adding more player options in the entire adventure.

A preference for 4E and consistently finding prep for 3E to be "work" are not linked.

A preference for DMing 4E and consistently finding prep 3E to be work are linked in the case of my group.

Some "Metacommunication":

Lately? Yeah.
I used to think of gamers as, on average, an impressive group.
Over the last year, not so much. There are still very solid subgroups. But my illusions of the group overall have been removed.

I can't say I noticed a shift in your attitude (but that's just because I never took note of it before), but I noticed that you come off very... unfriendly these days. I don't know what I would do in your place, but I consider thinking about whether that's the impression you want to give, and whether you can't do something more... productive.

But I certainly feel a bit your way - I still think people are pretty smart, but I also think that in all their smartness, some people have priorities or preferences I just can't share.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I enjoyed this kind of stuff, too, for a while. Until I noticed that after all those 11h of twinking, my villains, once confronted to attack the NPCs, still died in a few rounds. All the cool stuff I did was .. not really that impressive. And I could have spent the time doing something else, like fleshing out more of his personality, or just adding more player options in the entire adventure.

So you didn't realize this until 4e? Or you couldn't help yourself, and 4e solved the problem by removing the options?

I'm still not seeing the evolutionary leap to 4e.

Am I doing something wrong when I play 3e monsters right out of the SRD? Are they not fun? What if I (gasp) change them on the fly-- say, arbitrarily double their hit points halfway through combat? If I say YES! to my 3e players when they want to try something not codified into the rules... is this in error without the DMG explicitly granting me permission to do so?

4e will not teach you to be a better DM. It's removed the stumbling blocks.

Learning to play the flute is hard work. Swapping out your flute for a kazoo may allow you to rise to the level of kazoo virtuoso but... it's still a kazoo.

 

[Steely Dan]

I enjoyed this kind of stuff, too, for a while. Until I noticed that after all those 11h of twinking, my villains, once confronted to attack the NPCs, still died in a few rounds. All the cool stuff I did was .. not really that impressive. And I could have spent the time doing something else, like fleshing out more of his personality, or just adding more player options in the entire adventure.

Yep, this was one of the main contributors to my disillusionment with 3rd Ed.

Still a great game/edition, but after DMing a 3rd Ed campaign consistently for about 4 years, and now having fully converted it to 4th Ed, I don't think I would want to go back to DMing 3rd Ed.

But for some reason 4th Ed has given me a real hankering to DM a Basic, 1st Ed, or 2nd Ed campaign alongside my 4th Ed.

I never get to be a player, so I'm S.O.L. in that department.

 

[Heselbine]

If it was a "chore" and "work", then you weren't experienced enough.

That's pretty inflammatory. 3e was a "chore" and "work" for me. I have 30 years DMing experience and countless hours. You can't argue I'm not experienced.

You can argue I'm not a good DM, though I'd rather you did that after playing in one of my games.

 

[Mallus]

But it doesn't exactly explain where the Great Wheel went...

Back to the chaotic demiplane of overcomplicated and unimaginative fantasy cosmologies from whence it came?

4e is easier to stomach if you aren't.

"Hello nonsense my old friend, I've come to talk with you again."

(more seriously... all three experienced DM's in my group have a favorable opinion of 4e. I'm sure plenty of people are experienced DM's and dislike 4e... correlation != cause, etc.)

 

[Steely Dan]

Back to the chaotic demiplane of overcomplicated and unimaginative fantasy cosmologies from whence it came?

While I am a huge Planescape fan, looking back, the Great Wheel setup seems a bit more sci-fi than fantasy, IMO.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So you didn't realize this until 4e? Or you couldn't help yourself, and 4e solved the problem by removing the options?

No, I realized this earlier. Though the Iron Heroes Villain Classes helped me realize it even more.

I'm still not seeing the evolutionary leap to 4e.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough?
Or maybe it just doesn't exist. It's a gradual change, and it's not like 4E is reinventing role-playing.
But I think it is a leap to go from a more "explorative" creature building approach to a goal-oriented one. (But I wouldn't call it an "evolutionary" one).
My goal is to provide a challenge for my PCs at level X. I want thematic elements Y,Z, and represent them with special abilities of the monster. I just set the level, and have all the basic data I need. The real work is fleshing out the thematic elements.

The "explorative" approach in 3E to me is that I still want to get to level X and thematic elements Y and Z, but I have to play around with monster type, HD, skill point distribution, ability score placement and then a lot of guessworking on whether I achieved the level X, and only then I add the thematic elements Y,Z in.

Am I doing something wrong when I play 3e monsters right out of the SRD? Are they not fun? What if I (gasp) change them on the fly-- say, arbitrarily double their hit points halfway through combat? If I say YES! to my 3e players when they want to try something not codified into the rules... is this in error without the DMG explicitly granting me permission to do so?

Of course you are doing something wrong. My way is the only correct one.

Arbitrarily doubling hit points mid-combat feels like "cheating" to me. I am willing to do it before combat (I did - I created my own Minion, Elite and Solo templates for my Iron Heroes campaign), but halfway in? Might do it, if I really feel that it's worth it. But I don't feel comfortable with it.

And doing something not codified in the rules - I can do that, usually informed by RAW. But outright ignoring the rules? I'll try to avoid that. (And why did I get this rulebook if I want to ignore the rules anyway?)


The reason why I often did not use 3e monsters is because they didn't fit the levels of the PCs, or I just didn't like them, or because I wanted to give a monster or NPC with a unique flavor. I needed tools to build my own monsters, because I am not always happy with the existing ones. Sometimes, I am just a special snowflake.
One of the most satisfying adventures for me was when I build an adventure around "spider & crystals". I created templates, a few monsters and NPCs with the template, and also a unique "crystal spider" monster, featuring abilities of various Spiders, and with crystal-related powers.
I think the resulting monster was probably very close to a 4E monster - simple rules, but enough abilities to be memorable.

If I wanted to run a simple encounter against, say, Goblins - I had to write up different Goblins, because otherwise, they would all look the same and the adventure needs to be over in two encounters, or the players - and the DM - are bored.
Sure, I could have added several other monsters - but I didn't want to run a "Goblins with a Zoo" adventure, I wanted to run an adventure with Goblins.