D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[ezo]

I think the fact that it's close makes it a great option if you want to prepare other spells.

Or if you have a class that has few spells.

You could also pick it up via a feat or something and use higher level slots you might have from your class.

It certainly is useful, and although the damage might not be really as good (even under near-optimal conditions), it remains a decent option.

 

[Steampunkette]

Where does it say that?

Cloud of Daggers will deal 4d4.

Huh. You're right. It doesn't say you take damage.

It also doesn't say you can run right through it.

So... neither? Because I can't imagine a designer writing "Yeah, you can run through -this- 5 foot space full of fire safely, but all -other- 5 foot spaces full of fire deal damage!"

 

[Zardnaar]

Huh. You're right. It doesn't say you take damage.

It also doesn't say you can run right through it.

So... neither? Because I can't imagine a designer writing "Yeah, you can run through -this- 5 foot space full of fire safely, but all -other- 5 foot spaces full of fire deal damage!"

Not even difficult terrain. Doesn't count as a foe.

 

[Steampunkette]

Not even difficult terrain. Doesn't count as a foe.

If you can move through it it would note that. Or at least not bother to note that the sphere needs an unoccupied square to exist in.

Cloud of Daggers doesn't have that note. Bigby's Hand does.

Occam's Razor: Flaming Sphere occupies a 5ft space.

 

[Zardnaar]

If you can move through it it would note that. Or at least not bother to note that the sphere needs an unoccupied square to exist in.

Cloud of Daggers doesn't have that note. Bigby's Hand does.

Occam's Razor: Flaming Sphere occupies a 5ft space.

I would say it's unclear. Could be interpreted either way.

Haven't seen anyone try and move through it iirc.

 

[Steampunkette]

I would sat it's unclear. Coukd be interpreted either way.

Haven't seen anyone try and move through it iirc.

The fact that it "Rams" into people indicates it's solid.

It can also roll over 5ft high walls and jump across 10ft pits, so has something that involves gravity involved in it and will fall or balk if the pit is more than 10ft across.

It also makes a note about creatures ending their turns within 5ft of it, and makes no note about creatures ending their turn inside of it. Implying they can't...

Again, Occam's Razor. Simplest answer is probably the correct one.

 

[Zardnaar]

The fact that it "Rams" into people indicates it's solid.

It can also roll over 5ft high walls and jump across 10ft pits, so has something that involves gravity involved in it and will fall or balk if the pit is more than 10ft across.

It also makes a note about creatures ending their turns within 5ft of it, and makes no note about creatures ending their turn inside of it. Implying they can't...

Again, Occam's Razor. Simplest answer must be true.

More or less agree but seeing how one can argue against it.

 

[ezo]

Funny how they buffed chromatic orb but not a lot of other spells...

First Level Spells
Burning Hands - no change
Chromatic Orb - now bounces: 35% second target
Ice Knife - no change
Magic Missile - no change
Ray of Sickness - no change
Thunderwave - no change
Witch Bolt - extra d12 on initial attack, target takes secondary damage even if you miss the first attack

Of course, upcasting increases the damage along with the bounce percentage for CO, while upcasting the others just does damage, without potential target increases.

Makes me wonder what the decision was behind this? It isn't like CO was "weak" or anything compared to the other 1st-level spells.

For example, why not upgrade burning hands in 2024.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. For each spell slot level above 1, the cone range increase 5 feet and the damage increases by 1d6.

So, your 3rd-level it would be 25-foot cone and 5d6 damage. This puts it on par with the new CO spell, but still behind fireball.

 

[wizard71]

A chromatic orb deals up 6d8 damage in a level 3 slot. Vs 8d6.

27 vs 28 average damage.

Ah Zard you drunken kiwi you're delirious. Fireball hits all of the enemies and it's just better!!! Downsides are it's fire damage though and also hits allies.

New chromatic orb only hits up to 4 targets in a level 3 slot, isn't guaranteed to bounce. Drunken kiwis are also bad at maff. And romance, culture, poetry and anything else vaguely French sounding.

At level 3 it bounces 70%+ of the time 92% level 4, 98%+ level 5. Ping pong.

How often do you really encounter mooks in large number? Even if you do there's aways other AoE spells depending on class.

Any spell casting class also gets access to chromatic orb via magic adept if they want it bad enough.

Another key difference is attack roll vs save. Not many ways to buff spell DCs. Lots of ways to boost attack rolls though. Innate sorcerery also exists and advantage isn't to hard to get. Empower spell and seeking spell also exist.

In practice chromatic orb bounces a lot past the early levels, critical hits almost guarantee a bounce. In essence it's a no save fireball level spell. My players often only use it when accuracy is maximized. Sorcerers have the easiest way here. Elven accuracy is also funny. Advantage feeds critical hits.

I've seen it dropped in level 5 and 6 spell slots. At those levels I'm comparing it more to chain lightning. 6 or 7 potentially targets. In essence a no save chain lightning.

Non sorcerers often have access to bless or faerie fire for boosting accuracy. Humans can also get access to one of them so wizards can get in on the madness. Warlocks can get everything via ancient secrets. Everybody can sling chromatic orb.

It also opens up a good level 3 blast spell for dragon sorcerer that are not lightning bolt or fireball. Acid dragon sorcerer seems good. Along with sorcerous burst. Generally I'm not a fan of blasting spells (I rate fireball B tier). But I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Anyone else seeing it in use? Not saying it's broken or OP but as far as damage dealing goes........ It's also fun to use.

Zard, did you get torched once too often by fireball? To compare it to chromatic orb is beyond ridiculous. You always have a 5% miss chance with chromatic orb no matter what. The bounce is never guaranteed nor is hitting multiple targets. Its only advantage is that it’s a much better damage option than other spells of 2nd or 4rth level. That is why I keep it around. The only way I would ever use it as a third level slot is if I were out of meta magic points to ignore aoe damage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Zard, did you get torched once too often by fireball? To compare it to chromatic orb is beyond ridiculous. You always have a 5% miss chance with chromatic orb no matter what. The bounce is never guaranteed nor is hitting multiple targets. Its only advantage is that it’s a much better damage option than other spells of 2nd or 4rth level. That is why I keep it around. The only way I would ever use it as a third level slot is if I were out of meta magic points to ignore aoe damage.

Not familiar with 5.5? If you know what you're doing it's less than 5% miss chance.

It will miss less than fireball saves. I've seen fireball club it as well.

This threads an older one now. I've seen it in use more now.

It's versatility makes it better but yeah level 4 onwards it really shines. It's a lot better in a dragon sorcerer for example.

Player skill is huge with it. What order you bounce it, manipulate the dice/situation etc.