D&D 5E Fireball tweak idea

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Fireball:

A red streak shoots from your finger to the designated place. It then creates an explosion that deals 8d6 fire damage to creatures within it; a successful dex save halves thd damage. The radius of the explosion is 1' for every point of damage the explosion does. Even creatures overlapping the edge of the explosion risk full damage.

There. One roll. Larger radius vs no surgical strikes. No extra math.

And it scales with level. ;) Cast a 9th level fireball, roll 14d6 and get an average radius of 49 feet. BOOM!

(I considered giving advatange on the save at more than half radius, but that made the wording more complicated. We could give advantage on the save if you are partly outside of the radius? That actually seems neat.)

V2:

Fireball:

A red streak shoots from your finger to the designated place. It then creates an explosion that deals 8d6 fire damage to creatures within it; a successful dex save halves thd damage. The radius of the explosion is 1' for every point of damage the explosion does. If a creature is partly inside, partly outside of the radius, they have advantage on the dex saving throw.

Yeah ... not balanced. More targets times more damage per target makes the potential damage multiplicative for each upcast. Not acceptable. Plus it increases a base fireball to an average of 28 feet.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I don't think it is. i think it is desirable because it is the iconic area of effect damage spell for its level.

The designers have gone on record saying it's more powerful intentionally because they wanted it to stay an icon defining spell.

It's also significantly more damaging then the recommendations in the DMG for this.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Yeah ... not balanced. More targets times more damage per target makes the potential damage multiplicative for each upcast. Not acceptable. Plus it increases a base fireball to an average of 28 feet.
Except it means you can only use it in clean-field situations.

I'd consider it, at level 3, to be a serious downgrade over the default "surgical" fireball. If your allies are fighting a bunch of monsters and maintain any formation, the surgical one lets you blast almost all of the monsters.

I guess evocation wizards, who can sculpt spells, get a big boost.

At higher levels, fireball is far outclassed by later spells anyhow.

Meteor Swarm is 40' radius times 4 for 40d6 damage. This upgraded fireball at level 9 does 14d6 in an average of 50' radius. Night and day weaker.

Barring very unusual situations, you don't run into 500 orcs running at you in tight formation, which is what the insane higher radius on higher level fireballs needs to actually scale faster than linearly. The larger radius will get in the way more often than it won't. And when it doesn't get in the way, it is very fun.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Except it means you can only use it in clean-field situations.

I'd consider it, at level 3, to be a serious downgrade over the default "surgical" fireball. If your allies are fighting a bunch of monsters and maintain any formation, the surgical one lets you blast almost all of the monsters.

I guess evocation wizards, who can sculpt spells, get a big boost.

As well will Sorcerers. They have Empowered spell which would allow them to reroll dice to have more control over the radius, as well as Careful spell in case it does end up too big. Empowered doesn't even need to be used until after the damage is rolled, and can be used in conjusction with other megamagic.

Oh you can add things like Dragon Sorcerer +CHR to damage and radius if fire is your thing.

But yeah, evocation wizards get a huge boost from this. Others will have to use it in the traditional way of getting it off before the party and the foes intermix.

So, that's the two full casters that get fireball natively on their spell lists.

At higher levels, fireball is far outclassed by later spells anyhow.

Meteor Swarm is 40' radius times 4 for 40d6 damage. This upgraded fireball at level 9 does 14d6 in an average of 50' radius. Night and day weaker.

True, at 9th level there's a better spell. But fireball stays competitive at a lot of slot levels.

Starting at 3rd, it upcasts to this average rolled damage:
28.031.535.038.542.045.549.0

Only a single 4th level AoE does more damage at any level, Vitrolic Sphere. But it has a save that reduces it a lot more than a firball save-for-half so it's expected average damage is lower.

Going up to 5th level, Cone of Cold beats it by a point. Slightly more when you upcast them both both 5th.

No 6th level AOEs do as much as a 6th level fireball.

It's not until 7th level that the spells start doing more than fireball. Which is more than double the level you got fireball, and also after when most campaign end according to the D&D Beyond data and WotC survey response they've published.

(Damage per level source for spells: )

So a fireball that starts with a 28' radius and grows bigger outclasses many levels of spells. If you're playing a standard 1 to 10-ish game, fireball is basically always top tier AoE for every level it can be cast at.

Barring very unusual situations, you don't run into 500 orcs running at you in tight formation, which is what the insane higher radius on higher level fireballs needs to actually scale faster than linearly. The larger radius will get in the way more often than it won't. And when it doesn't get in the way, it is very fun.

You're the one saying you need density, that's almost the opposite of what I'm saying where the extra area is important. Please don't try to set up a strawman. It could be a field of hobgoblins all nicely social distancing with an empty square between them, and if there are enuogh targets the extra area will get them. Again, there are times when just having an extra line or two of squares or not an be very useful.

And you are ignoring that you pick if an how much to upcast it. So we can basically assume that it will be bigger when it's advantagous to be bigger and smaller when it's advantageous to be more controlled.

To sum up: A 20' radius fireball is top tier for damage at every spell slot level a normal caster will reach (5th-12th level). Making it default to about twice the area at 3rd level (20'r = 1256 sq ft, 28'r = 2463 sq ft), and giving the caster more control over making it large selectively by upcasting makes it even more powerful than it already is.
 
Last edited:



aco175

Legend
Fireball was cast last night in my home game with the dice showing (2) 1s and (0) 6s. It was easy to see right off and taking 10ft of range away would have gotten 2 cultists and the party thief out of the blast, but not much else. It appeared to be easy to determine and looked like it would have not taken much time to determine things.

Still not sure if making this spell change makes other spells need it as well. It still feels like punishing the mage when all the other spells are exact.
 

Remove ads

Top