Five Alignments?

[M.L. Martin]

I kind of expect CE and LG to be the extremes too, but what do titans have to do with it? Are primordials the exemplar of eviltude?

Given the anti-creation motif we've seen assigned to demons and primordials servants, I suspect CE will be the 'destroy the world' alignment, while Evil will be 'rule/plunder the world'. Lawful Good, if I had to guess, will be the alignment for archetypal paladins, knights, and others who do the right thing and follow a rigorous code of honor, while Good is for those who are well-meaning but not quite so scrupulous.

 

[lutecius]

I kind of expect CE and LG to be the extremes too, but what do titans have to do with it? Are primordials the exemplar of eviltude?

I believe they're the examplars of chaosness.

 

[MaelStorm]

Given the anti-creation motif we've seen assigned to demons and primordials servants, I suspect CE will be the 'destroy the world' alignment, while Evil will be 'rule/plunder the world'. Lawful Good, if I had to guess, will be the alignment for archetypal paladins, knights, and others who do the right thing and follow a rigorous code of honor, while Good is for those who are well-meaning but not quite so scrupulous.

THIS is how I see it too.

 

[frankthedm]

I kind of expect CE and LG to be the extremes too, but what do titans have to do with it? Are primordials the exemplar of eviltude

I believe they're the exemplars of chaosness.

Pretty much both. Long ago, possibly when or even before the primodeals and the gods were at war, Tharizdun found a / the "seed of evil" and hurled it into the Elemental maelstrom. Wotc did not say why he did it, so it could have been a 'nuclear option' or Tharizdun might have done it just to be a dick, but regardless, that caused the Abyss to form in the elemental maelstrom and birthed the demons. IIRC some primordials even became demon lords from that.

Not only did the Primodeals lose the war, but they also got corrupted and had their home plane turned into the cosmic toilet. They now want a do-over. Of course than means they have to unmake the current version of creation.

 

[lutecius]

Given the anti-creation motif we've seen assigned to demons and primordials servants, I suspect CE will be the 'destroy the world' alignment, while Evil will be 'rule/plunder the world'.

Yes. This is why I don’t like the name CE. This theme looks like a caricature of actual mythology, but "New Order" vs "Ancient Order" would be more appropriate than LG vs CE (not that i suggest "New Order" as a name for an aligmnent)

The Titans, Jotnar, Asuras or Tiamat, as enemies of the order established by the younger gods are in effect "forces of chaos" but they are not more evil or chaotic in their behaviour than Thor, Odhin or the Greek pantheon.

 

[Revinor]

The Titans, Jotnar, Asuras or Tiamat, as enemies of the order established by the younger gods are in effect "forces of chaos" but they are not more evil or chaotic in their behaviour than Thor, Odhin or the Greek pantheon.

As far as I understand primordials, they would be happy to 'restart' the world, just without sentience this time. Anybody who wants to get rid of all sentience in the world (not only you or me, or even all humans, but idea of intelligent being at all), counts as 'more than evil' in my book.

So, for me, primordials and their servants, probably also Far Realm = CE. Anybody else, just plain E (including evil gods, demon lords, chromatic dragons, charismatic dragons, charm dragons and strange dragons). Chaos = destroy the world. Destroy the world counts as evil in the view of most people - but there is a lot of other, 'lesser' evils which doesn't involve wholesome genocide of all sentient beings.

 

[Burr]

Here is why Chaotic Good is a bad distinction, in retrospect. Suppose a Good person sees one law as mandating truly "good" behavior and another law as rewarding "evil" behavior (for those in charge, at least). Yeah, a non-lawful person would have no problem rejecting whatever laws they see fit to reject. But a truly Good person could never see fit to reject a law they believe to be good, even if they believe legal hierarchies are generally bad for society. Thus, all good people who are not Lawful Good are simply Good. You could, of course, reject Neutral Good instead and keep Chaotic Good. But LG-CG implies polarity that doesn't necessarily exist to any great degree. (One Good person might reject a single evil law out of a multitude of good laws, but this shouldn't seem to make them Chaotic). It is better to think of Lawful Good as a species of Good overall.

Chaotic Evil makes sense, on the other hand. The evil side of the equation includes monsters and creatures that may well reject any and all laws, even evil ones. Good is good, but evil is anything it wants to be at any given time.

Now let's look at Lawful Evil. Suppose a Lawful Evil creature discovered a utopian kingdom with laws that perfectly mandated good behavior. Would that creature cease to behave evilly in order to remain lawful? It seems unlikely. Hence, it is unlikely that there are any truly lawful evil creatures. Rather, there are only evil creatures who can tolerate lawfulness. That makes them simply Evil, not Lawful Evil.

The utopia scenario could also be applied to Lawful Good characters. Put a LG Paladin in a distopia of perfectly evil laws. This forces the Paladin into a hard choice: be lawful or be good? However, that also seems like a conflict it makes sense to throw at players. It seems much harder to conclude what the Paladin's choice will be than to conclude that a lawful evil NPC would choose evil over lawfulness. Perhaps if D&D weren't focused on good protagonists and evil antagonists we'd have to treat them the same, but in general it seems more useful to keep Lawful Good and toss Lawful Evil aside.

 

[med stud]

Yes. This is why I don’t like the name CE. This theme looks like a caricature of actual mythology, but "New Order" vs "Ancient Order" would be more appropriate than LG vs CE (not that i suggest "New Order" as a name for an aligmnent)

The Titans, Jotnar, Asuras or Tiamat, as enemies of the order established by the younger gods are in effect "forces of chaos" but they are not more evil or chaotic in their behaviour than Thor, Odhin or the Greek pantheon.

Except that they want to destroy the world. However you turn this issue, you have to say that destroying the world, from the perspective of those living in it, is evil or insane. Insane is no alignment, so evil it is. Chaos is the force of unmaking, therefore destruction by unmaking = chaotic evil. Law is stability and when you have reached the perfect world, you don't want it to change. Those striving for a good world that won't change = lawful good.

Chaotic good = doing good by unmaking and changing. Unless you are after perpetual change, even when things are good, this is an alignment that can only react to others. That's my main problem with that alignment.

Lawful evil = See Burr's post above. Spot on.

 

[ZetaStriker]

The only thing I find weird about this Alignment system is the way 'Unaligned' will work. I can't help but feel that 95% of the world's population is unaligned, and that Good, Evil, Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are very specific roles a person can fit into. It's the shade of gray on the alignment chart, but it feels more like a gigantic gray splotch that bisects the entire center of the page.

Anyway, Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil will always be extremes in my mind... in 3.5, they really did seem very different from the rest of the alignments that shared either of their titles. Chaotic Evil was near mindless in its search for destruction, while Lawful Good came across as oppressive as any evil alignment.

 

[theNater]

...the way 'Unaligned' will work. I can't help but feel that 95% of the world's population is unaligned, and that Good, Evil, Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are very specific roles a person can fit into.

That's exactly right. Most people don't wake up in the morning and say "I'm going to make the world a better place today". Most people also don't wake up and say "I'm going to aquire power for myself today, no matter who it hurts". Those would be your good and evil people, respectively, while most people would just go about their daily lives, helping others if it doesn't hurt them too much, or gaining power for themselves if it doesn't hurt others too much. That's exactly what 'Unaligned' represents.