Five Alignments?

[frankthedm]

Chaotic good = doing good by unmaking and changing. Unless you are after perpetual change, even when things are good, this is an alignment that can only react to others. That's my main problem with that alignment.

The alignment 'reacts' by avoiding large groups and being surly when told what to do. You won't notice CG unless is plunging a weapon into a sleeping tyrant, pressing the downtrodden masses to revolt or finding some other way to make the world a better place in a way detestable to the forces of law.

 

[jackston2]

Lawful Good
Good = Chaotic Good (Good without worrying about law)
Unaligned
Chaotic Evil
Evil = Imposing your will on others (law)

 

[ZetaStriker]

That's exactly right. Most people don't wake up in the morning and say "I'm going to make the world a better place today". Most people also don't wake up and say "I'm going to aquire power for myself today, no matter who it hurts". Those would be your good and evil people, respectively, while most people would just go about their daily lives, helping others if it doesn't hurt them too much, or gaining power for themselves if it doesn't hurt others too much. That's exactly what 'Unaligned' represents.

I do want to clarify why I thought it odd, though. It's not because I think it's a bad thing, it's because I think that it makes the other alignments entirely unnecessary. It's the first step in a direction that will lead to the removal of the alignment system, which I like.

 

[Family]

Motivation is a factor.

Grizzly: Grumpy Hungry = Attack!
Grizzly: Neutral Hungry = Attack!
Grizzly: Grumpy Tired = Sleep!

What motivation drives your character? Fame, power, loot, knowledge, freedom, accolades, ideals, wenches?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I don't like this one bit. *Maybe* there's an explanation... maybe. But I'm not seeing it.

I hate the law/chaos axis anyway, for exactly the reasons illustrated by Kobold Avenger's and Charwoman Gene's little exchange abovethread. For a Moorcockian cosmology? Sure. But a Moorcockian notion of the Law-Chaos "balance" is as specific a narrative element as the "gods" being non-Euclidean squamous Entities from Beyond, or all wizards being celestial servants from the Undying Lands. It's more an exogenous cosmological/world-building statement of things as they are than a set of tools for determining or describing role-playing behavior.

The one campaign setting that clearly had a law vs. chaos distinction was Planescape, where the was the Fascistic and Fundamentalist Harmonium on one side and the Anarchist-often Terroristic Revolutionary League on the other. They represented Law and Chaos as political and nothing metaphysical. Both of them had their share of Good and Evil members. Fascism can sometimes be used for good as much as evil, just as Anarchy can be used for good or evil. Now that's not to completely say that political spectrums are completely related to law and chaos, but they're a very clear example of what law and chaos can be beyond metaphysical forces.

 

[lutecius]

As far as I understand primordials, they would be happy to 'restart' the world, just without sentience this time. Anybody who wants to get rid of all sentience in the world (not only you or me, or even all humans, but idea of intelligent being at all), counts as 'more than evil' in my book.

So, for me, primordials and their servants, probably also Far Realm = CE. Anybody else, just plain E (including evil gods, demon lords, chromatic dragons, charismatic dragons, charm dragons and strange dragons). Chaos = destroy the world. Destroy the world counts as evil in the view of most people - but there is a lot of other, 'lesser' evils which doesn't involve wholesome genocide of all sentient beings.

Except that they want to destroy the world. However you turn this issue, you have to say that destroying the world, from the perspective of those living in it, is evil or insane. Insane is no alignment, so evil it is. Chaos is the force of unmaking, therefore destruction by unmaking = chaotic evil.

If all those creatures (titans, giants, demons...) actually want to destroy the world they helped create or destroy all sentient life, including their own, rather than just feed upon it or reshape it, they really are insane or "chaotic stupid".
It could make sense for a category of mindless creatures or two but it would be a waste if so many monster's ultimate motivation was self-annihilation.

This is why I mentionned the primordials equivalent in real world mythology. They want to re-establish the original order, with them on top if possible, even if that means destroying other races. This is not chaotic, not "beyond evil", not as original but it makes more sense and has more potential in my opinion than "must...destroy...universe"

 

[Aloïsius]

Except that they want to destroy the world. However you turn this issue, you have to say that destroying the world, from the perspective of those living in it, is evil or insane. Insane is no alignment, so evil it is. Chaos is the force of unmaking, therefore destruction by unmaking = chaotic evil. Law is stability and when you have reached the perfect world, you don't want it to change. Those striving for a good world that won't change = lawful good.

Except that in nearly every real cosmology, chaos is not only the force of unmaking, it's the primal force that creates the world, or from which the world is created.
Law is the stabilizing, for sure. But chaos has many faces. Prometheus is a chaotic figure, as is Lucifer, as they break the law by giving something to humans, but while lucifer is clearly evil, this is not the case with Prometheus.
Same thing with Pan/Dyonisos : they symbolize chaos, rebirth, youth. Not a surprise that Dyonisos is killed by Hera (and resurrected later)...

 

[M.L. Martin]

This is why I mentionned the primordials equivalent in real world mythology. They want to re-establish the original order, with them on top if possible, even if that means destroying other races. This is not chaotic, not "beyond evil", not as original but it makes more sense and has more potential in my opinion than "must...destroy...universe"

Actually, the hints from Worlds and Monsters blends the two by suggesting that the 'order' the primordials wish to establish is a fundamentally chaotic one:

The titans worked alongside the primordials to shape the details of the newborn world, though it remains a place of elemental fury and spectacular destruction. Had the primordials been left to their own desires, the world would have remained that way--ever-changing, destroying and rebuilding itself in an endless cycle.
. . .
Some of the great primordials who shaped the world from the building blocks of creation yet remain, though chained and raging. Entombed in divinely crafted prisons and hidden within the cosmos, the ancient beings look forward to the hour of their release. When that moment finally comes, they will unleash elemental retaliation upon all of creation.

Demons, granted, see things a bit differently.

The Abyss represents entropy and annihilation, and consequently the demons that inhabit the Abyss are extensions of this cosmological niche. Demons are what the Abyss uses to destroy things beyond its reach. They are, in their many forms, living engines of destruction, beings fundamentally opposed to the gods, their immortal servants, and all their mortal worshippers. The greatest of the demons, the demon lords, believe that annihilation of the unvierse begins with the destruction of the gods and their greatest creations--the world. Since destroying gods is beyond the capability of your average demon horde, the first and foremost agenda of demonkind is to ravage and destroy the world.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

If this alignment change is true, I'm going to have to change my signiture, as there's no way I'm on the fence anymore. This is the dumbest change they could've made for alignment. I'd perfer they just hack out the law vs chaos entirely rather then make them ++good or ++evil.

 

[lutecius]

Actually, the hints from Worlds and Monsters blends the two by suggesting that the 'order' the primordials wish to establish is a fundamentally chaotic one:
Demons, granted, see things a bit differently.

It's intriguing that "mundane" monsters like the hill giant have the same alignment as demons.

This is off-topic but your excerpt makes me wonder what demon lords like Grazzt or Malcanthet will look like in 4e. Apparently they didn't switch sides like the succubus.