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D&D 5E Fizban's Treasury Dragons Ranked By Challenge Rating

WotC has been sending out previews of Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, due out next month, to folks on Twitter. Amongst those are art pieces and other items.

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By Challenge Rating the dragons in the book are:
  • Ancient crystal (19)
  • Ancient topaz (20)
  • Ancient emerald (21)
  • Ancient moonstone (21)
  • Ancient sapphire (22)
  • Elder brain dragon (22)
  • Ancient amethyst (23)
  • Ancient dragon turtle (24)
  • Gem greatwyrm (26)
  • Chromatic greatwyrm (27)
  • Metallic greatwyrm (28)
  • Apects of Bahamut and Tiamat (30)
Interestingly, it appears that the great wyrm category is divided into three -- gem, chromatic, metallic -- rather than by each dragon type.

There's also an alphabetical list of all 20 dragon types in the book:
  • Amethyst
  • Black
  • Blue
  • Brass
  • Bronze
  • Copper
  • Crystal
  • Deep
  • Dragon turtle
  • Emerald
  • Faerie
  • Gold
  • Green
  • Moonstone
  • Red
  • Sapphire
  • Shadow
  • Silver
  • Topaz
  • White
 
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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Looks like I'll have to update my list of dragons soon: Fantastic Friday: True Dragons in D&D


Can't tell you how disappointed I was that this never became reality.
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Your list is wrong the Metallic Steel Dragon's introduction wasn't actually in 4e, it's just that 4e retconned the Waterdeep Dragon into being a Metallic Dragon, Steel Dragon.


Looking at the notes it appears the Steel/Waterdeep Dragons origins are from the 1990 Dracomaticon.

I think 4e is did this with a bunch of Dragons that they pushed into preexisting Dragon families, Grey Dragons are just Fang Dragons that got pushed into the Chromatic Dragon Family in 4e, Deep Dragons got turned into Purple Dragons in 4e as well I think, I don't think Deep Dragons were seen as Chromatic until 4e. So a much of the new Chromatic and Metallic Dragons actually preexisted as Dragons using a different name unlinked to Chromatic or Metallic. I don't have a full list of which Dragons were absorbed into Chromatics and Metallics breeds in 4e.
 
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Scribe

Hero
I doubt that. The look is standardized in 5e as well. It has to be something else in addition to that, or both editions would be getting the same hate.
Oh, I hate the 5e default as well, but thats simply because its a continuation that was maintained, so I dont 'blame it' as much as 4e.
 

Liane the Wayfarer

Frumious Flumph
Your list is wrong the Metallic Steel Dragon's introduction wasn't actually in 4e, it's just that 4e retconned the Waterdeep Dragon into being a Metallic Dragon, Steel Dragon.
That is a different dragon, I'll have add the 2E Steel Dragon. But the 2E and 4E Steel Dragons are completely different -- the 2E Steel Dragon exhales a gas that affects its targets like the feign death spell, while the 4E Steel Dragon exhales, uh, "force damage" apparently. And they're both different from the 1E Ahi, the Steel Dragon, who exhales either poison gas, scalding water vapor, or a magical gas that causes creatures to become gaseous clouds.

EDIT: Actually, you're incorrect, it's already there under Renegade Dragons in the list. The 2E Steel Dragon is not a Metallic Dragon. Both the 4E Steel Dragon and the 1E Ahi the Steel Dragon are said to be part of the Metallic Dragons in their descriptions.
 
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That is a different dragon, I'll have add the 2E Steel Dragon. But the 2E and 4E Steel Dragons are completely different -- the 2E Steel Dragon exhales a gas that affects its targets like the feign death spell, while the 4E Steel Dragon exhales, uh, "force damage" apparently. And they're both different from the 1E Ahi, the Steel Dragon, who exhales either poison gas, scalding water vapor, or a magical gas that causes creatures to become gaseous clouds.

EDIT: Actually, you're incorrect, it's already there under Renegade Dragons in the list. The 2E Steel Dragon is not a Metallic Dragon. Both the 4E Steel Dragon and the 1E Ahi the Steel Dragon are said to be part of the Metallic Dragons in their descriptions.
how do we have three steel dragon types?
why do we have alloy dragons anyway?
 

Your list is wrong the Metallic Steel Dragon's introduction wasn't actually in 4e, it's just that 4e retconned the Waterdeep Dragon into being a Metallic Dragon, Steel Dragon.


Looking at the notes it appears the Steel/Waterdeep Dragons origins are from the 1990 Dracomaticon.

I think 4e is did this with a bunch of Dragons that they pushed into preexisting Dragon families, Grey Dragons are just Fang Dragons that got pushed into the Chromatic Dragon Family in 4e, Deep Dragons got turned into Purple Dragons in 4e as well I think, I don't think Deep Dragons were seen as Chromatic until 4e. So a much of the new Chromatic and Metallic Dragons actually preexisted as Dragons using a different name unlinked to Chromatic or Metallic. I don't have a full list of which Dragons were absorbed into Chromatics and Metallics breeds in 4e.

Actually, they were originally called Greyhawk Dragons, and first appeared in the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover in 1988. They became known as Waterdeep Dragons in the Forgotten Realms since, well, you can't have something called a Greyhawk Dragon on Toril! Finally, it was decided just to call them all steel dragons just to keep things simpler and have a singular general name for them all..

(The article you quote mentions their original name, although not the original source)
 


That is a different dragon, I'll have add the 2E Steel Dragon. But the 2E and 4E Steel Dragons are completely different -- the 2E Steel Dragon exhales a gas that affects its targets like the feign death spell, while the 4E Steel Dragon exhales, uh, "force damage" apparently. And they're both different from the 1E Ahi, the Steel Dragon, who exhales either poison gas, scalding water vapor, or a magical gas that causes creatures to become gaseous clouds.

EDIT: Actually, you're incorrect, it's already there under Renegade Dragons in the list. The 2E Steel Dragon is not a Metallic Dragon. Both the 4E Steel Dragon and the 1E Ahi the Steel Dragon are said to be part of the Metallic Dragons in their descriptions.

The 2e Waterdeep/Greyhawk Dragon ARE the same Dragon type as the 4e Steel Dragon, it's just that they altered the Breath Weapon, among other things, like retconning them into being Metallic Dragons. Like the Deep Dragons breath weapon was changed in 4e, it didn't make them a different kind of Dragon, it was just a retcon to a preexisting type of Dragon. Most of the Fluff matches.

It's simular to how 4e took Succubi and turned them into Devil's, instead of Demons, they were a seperate Succubi race, they retconned it, although Erin M. Evans fitted it for FR so it wasn't a retcon, more so a recent change of alliagence.
 

Why do you say that? They seem to fit very well with thev4e world building. In fact, the world building of 4e is one of the things that brought me back to D&D after skipping most if 2e & 3e
The worldbuilding of 4e was designed for two purposes: to create a coherent D&D setting for branding purposes (D&D consists of these things...) and to make a setting that centered entirely around adventurers and the adventures they do. I see both of these as artificial and crass. In my opinion, it is worldbuilding for the wrong reasons, building the world around the game instead of the game around the world.
 

Dausuul

Legend
The worldbuilding of 4e was designed for two purposes: to create a coherent D&D setting for branding purposes (D&D consists of these things...) and to make a setting that centered entirely around adventurers and the adventures they do. I see both of these as artificial and crass. In my opinion, it is worldbuilding for the wrong reasons, building the world around the game instead of the game around the world.
Oh, please. You know where Planescape came from? Zeb Cook was assigned to create "a complete campaign world (not just a place to visit), survivable by low-level characters, as compatible with the old Manual of the Planes as possible, filled with a feeling of vastness without overwhelming the referee, distinct from all other TSR campaigns, free of the words 'demon' and 'devil' and explainable to Marketing in 25 words or less."

So let's not talk about "artificial and crass" motivations for worldbuilding. Just say you don't like the result and leave it at that.
 
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Oh, please. You know where Planescape came from? Zeb Cook was assigned to create "a complete campaign world (not just a place to visit), survivable by low-level characters, as compatible with the old Manual of the Planes as possible, filled with a feeling of vastness without overwhelming the referee, distinct from all other TSR campaigns, free of the words 'demon' and 'devil' and explainable to Marketing in 25 words or less."

So let's not talk about "artificial and crass" motivations for worldbuilding. Just say you don't like the result and leave it at that.
I don't like the result, because I feel it is artificial and crass. I'm allowed both to have opinions and to have reasons for them.

Also, notice that one of the requirements for Planescape was "as compatible with the old Manual of the Planes as possible". Planescape, as I mentioned above, was additive. It sucks that they had to remove "demon" and "devil" at the time, but I think they came up with a cool substitute when required.
 

dave2008

Legend
The worldbuilding of 4e was designed for two purposes: to create a coherent D&D setting for branding purposes (D&D consists of these things...) and to make a setting that centered entirely around adventurers and the adventures they do. I see both of these as artificial and crass. In my opinion, it is worldbuilding for the wrong reasons, building the world around the game instead of the game around the world.
I disagree with your assessment on several points. But there is no value in arguing it. We can both be happy with the fact that we are correct in our own minds.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Oh, please. You know where Planescape came from? Zeb Cook was assigned to create "a complete campaign world (not just a place to visit), survivable by low-level characters, as compatible with the old Manual of the Planes as possible, filled with a feeling of vastness without overwhelming the referee, distinct from all other TSR campaigns, free of the words 'demon' and 'devil' and explainable to Marketing in 25 words or less."

So let's not talk about "artificial and crass" motivations for worldbuilding. Just say you don't like the result and leave it at that.
Actually, I'd day the flaw with the Nentir Vale and Dawn War stuff was being insufficiently commercial.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
In what way?
It was designed to have a coherent and logical mythos, because that is what the creators wanted to try, rather than by paying attention to what users wanted from the game. There is a design principle that really summarizes everything about what happpend with 4E "You [the designer] are not the user."

With 5E, they did the work to find out what people by and large wanted, hence the return to the illogical and silly (hence fun for a game) Great Wheel and the Smorgasbord of the Forgotten Realms.
 
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