Flanking with yourself

[Mistwell]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but my search function was accidentally disabled and I had question about this build.

Rogue with these feats:

1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Vexing Flanker - Prereq: Combat Reflexes. Gain a +4 to attacks when flanking instead of the normal +2.
4. Adaptable Flanker - Prereqs: Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, BAB +4. "You can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent."

I'd probably add Weapon Finesse: Spiked Chain as well, but it's not necessary for this question.

Since the Spiked Chain threatens at 5' and 10', and since Adaptable Flanker says you "count as occupying any square you threaten" and "also occupy your current square", my read of this combination says you can flank with yourself.

Note - I do not intend to use this combo, as I would personally house-rule it to require another person as a flanker (though I am open to being persuaded otherwise). But by the RAW, I am curious to see if people agree that you can flank with yourself.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note - I do not intend to use this combo, as I would personally house-rule it to require another person as a flanker (though I am open to being persuaded otherwise). But by the RAW, I am curious to see if people agree that you can flank with yourself.

It depends whether or not you are considered 'a character or creature friendly to you'

Also, you arguably don't need the spiked chain. As long as you are not attacking from a diagonal, you can make this work against a Medium creature with your shortsword or rapier.

Let's say I'm fighting an orc one square to the north of me. I threaten the squares directly east and west of him, so I am considered via Adaptable Flanker to occupy those squares for the purpose of flanking... and those squares are on opposite sides of the orc.

I say 'arguably' because I'm not certain if the feat allows you to 'phantom' occupy more than one square at a time.

For example, if my two buddies are in the squares northeast and northwest of the orc, can I grant both of them a flanking bonus (since I threaten the squares southwest and southeast of the orc), or do I have to choose one square that I 'phantom' occupy?

-Hyp.

 

[jcfiala]

Since the Spiked Chain threatens at 5' and 10', and since Adaptable Flanker says you "count as occupying any square you threaten" and "also occupy your current square", my read of this combination says you can flank with yourself.

Well, if Bob is weilding a spiked chain, and a medium creature is next to him, does Bob threaten the square on the other side of the medium creature? I'd say no - I think that the medium creature next to bob 'blocks' the threat. (I'd feel differently if it was more of a size difference - if it's a taller creature with more natural reach, then I'd think the creature would reach over the squares next to him... but when it's two medium creatures, I think there's blocking going on.)

 

[shilsen]

I don't think it would work simply because you the enemy needs to be flanked by "two friendly characters" (pg.153, PHB). However many squares you count as occupying, you still count as one creature, so no dice.

Interesting question, however.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'd say no.

Just like I would say no for a Huge creature who has a Small creature in the middle of his Space.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't think it would work simply because you the enemy needs to be flanked by "two friendly characters" (pg.153, PHB).

Not necessarily. It says you get the bonus if he is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you.

It then gives a rule for determining whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, but it doesn't state that a case where the character or creature friendly to you does not qualify as a second character disallows the first sentence.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, if Bob is weilding a spiked chain, and a medium creature is next to him, does Bob threaten the square on the other side of the medium creature? I'd say no - I think that the medium creature next to bob 'blocks' the threat. (I'd feel differently if it was more of a size difference - if it's a taller creature with more natural reach, then I'd think the creature would reach over the squares next to him... but when it's two medium creatures, I think there's blocking going on.)

By RAW, you do not "block" that square, just offer cover to it. You don't actually occupy all 5 feet of the square you are in all at once, unless you are a gelatinous cube.

If you blocked the square, all SORTS of rules would change, and archers would pretty much be screwed the moment a melee ally engaged.

 

[Mistwell]

I say 'arguably' because I'm not certain if the feat allows you to 'phantom' occupy more than one square at a time.

For example, if my two buddies are in the squares northeast and northwest of the orc, can I grant both of them a flanking bonus (since I threaten the squares southwest and southeast of the orc), or do I have to choose one square that I 'phantom' occupy?

-Hyp.

"You can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies."

I'd say it's a single other square, since it's "square" instead of "squareS" and "any" instead of "any or all".

However, given the final sentence of the feat that says you ALSO occupy your own space, it would work with the chain I think.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, if Bob is weilding a spiked chain, and a medium creature is next to him, does Bob threaten the square on the other side of the medium creature? I'd say no - I think that the medium creature next to bob 'blocks' the threat.

You can't make an AoO against a creature with cover, and your opponent provides soft cover to the square on the far side.

But you could make a melee attack into that square (though the cover bonus to AC would apply). The definition of a threatened square is "a square into which you can make a melee attack".

Let's say you had the Mage Slayer feat, and there was a spellcaster in that square opposite you. You can't make an AoO on him - he has soft cover. But you can make a melee attack into that square. Is he a "spellcaster you threaten"?

By RAW, you do not "block" that square, just offer cover to it.

But that cover prevents AoOs... does that mean you do or do not threaten?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"You can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies."

I'd say it's a single other square, since it's "square" instead of "squareS" and "any" instead of "any or all".

Fair enough

The feat would be nice with four levels of Elocater, though:

Flanker (Ex): An elocater of 4th level or higher can flank enemies from seemingly impossible angles. She can designate any adjacent square as the square from which flanking against an ally is determined (including the square where she stands, as normal). She can designate the square at the beginning of her turn or at any time during her turn. The designated square remains her effective square for flanking until she is no longer adjacent to it or until she chooses a different square (at the start of one of her turns). The character can even choose a square that is impassable or occupied.

So you could use the Elocater ability to designate the square to the east of the orc, and the feat to designate the square west of the orc...

-Hyp.