Forked Thread: Star Wars: WEG D6 v. Saga/D20?

JediSoth

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Forked from: Star Wars: D20 v. Saga? [Update 12/08/08: Got The Book]

JediSoth said:
What I'd like to see if a comprehensive analysis of the pros and cons of the D20/Saga edition of the Star Wars RPG versus the West End Games D6 version.

I know they're completely different systems, so it might be like comparing apples to oranges, but I've found that sometimes different gaming systems model certain styles of play better or worse than others.

So how about it? Anyone intimately familiar with both systems to the point they can comprehensive analysis of the differences?
 

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Forked from: Star Wars: D20 v. Saga? [Update 12/08/08: Got The Book]

So how about it? Anyone intimately familiar with both systems to the point they can comprehensive analysis of the differences?

The biggest difference is the lack of a class system and thus parallel advancement in both combat and non-combat elements.

For example, a hot-shot pilot in d6 is someone who devoted a lot of pips/dices to their "pilot" skill and may even has specialized in a type of vessel. Beyond that, he may have never touched a pistol in his life, so his combat skills are weak, but his piloting abilities are top-noche! Compare to d20, where you level your piloting skills and your base-attack bonus at the same time; that pilot can use a "pistol" at the same skill as any other character of the same level/Bab.

The former is more realistic, the latter more "heroic."
 

The biggest difference is the lack of a class system and thus parallel advancement in both combat and non-combat elements.

For example, a hot-shot pilot in d6 is someone who devoted a lot of pips/dices to their "pilot" skill and may even has specialized in a type of vessel. Beyond that, he may have never touched a pistol in his life, so his combat skills are weak, but his piloting abilities are top-noche! Compare to d20, where you level your piloting skills and your base-attack bonus at the same time; that pilot can use a "pistol" at the same skill as any other character of the same level/Bab.
Dude, that analysis has so many unstated assumptions as to make it almost useless.

You do realize that any sort of skill specialist in SWSE has a minimum +10 in the skill at first level, right? Making them one of the most proficient characters alive? For example, a hot-shot pilot will have training and Skill Focus, giving him a +10 to pilot checks, in addition to any talent from a high dexterity. Whereas his blaster combat abilities will be reliant upon pure talent (dexterity bonus).



Unfortunately, I'm not at all familiar with the d6 system, so I can't offer an analysis of it. Worse, I can't compare it with the SWSE, since I don't know where the two are congruent. I can tell you about Saga, but I can't compare it.

If you'd be interested in that list, so you can compare it with your own knowledge of the WEG system, then let me know. I'll share what I can.
 

Dude, that analysis has so many unstated assumptions as to make it almost useless.

You do realize that any sort of skill specialist in SWSE has a minimum +10 in the skill at first level, right? Making them one of the most proficient characters alive? For example, a hot-shot pilot will have training and Skill Focus, giving him a +10 to pilot checks, in addition to any talent from a high dexterity. Whereas his blaster combat abilities will be reliant upon pure talent (dexterity bonus).

I think that was a bit harsh. Remathilis's point was that d6 is a (mostly) classless system that allows you to upgrade any ability/skill when you get character points where as SWSE makes you pick a class at each level. The WEG edition allows the player to make a general character or a specific character using the same system but your abilities don't automatically go up unless you put the points in the skill and/or attribute.

In addition WEG had a wild die for each roll which must be a different color than the rest. If it comes up a 6, you add the 6 and roll and again and keep rolling and adding if you keep rolling a 6. If you roll a 1, then a mishap occurs.
 

JediSoth said:
So how about it? Anyone intimately familiar with both systems to the point they can comprehensive analysis of the differences?
I'll take a crack at it, having played plenty of d6 back in the day and being an avid fan of Saga.

Remathilis hit one of the major contrasts regarding the class system. In d6, since you can spend your experience any way that you want, it can lead to characters that are wildly awesome in a very narrow range of skills, but are far less competent at things outside of their area of expertise. Much like you'd see in the real world if someone hyper-specialized at one thing. The Ace Pilot is one example, as is the Gunslinger, both of whom after several adventures may have 10+ dice in their key skills, but would be lucky to have more than 3 dice in non-key skills, and especially true of the Force Wizard since their Force skills can do so freakin' much, and it can get costly to raise them. It allows for great customization of what your character can do, but at the same time it can limit the GM in the type of scenarios he wants to run. Hard to do a dramatic old west type chase scene with the PCs atop kybuks if nobody invested in points in their Ride skill (although the Ace Pilot might do okay since his Mechanical attribute will be pretty decent).

In Saga Edition, you wind up with characters that are good/really good at their areas of expertise, but not hopeless in others. To use the old west chase scene, even if nobody has the Ride skill, the PCs can do a reasonable go at it since they'd get to add 1/2 their level to the skill check. Saga Edition takes the approach that if you've been out adventuring for a while, then you're going to pick up some tangential knowledge about other things. Master Yoda may not be much of a computer whiz compared to guys like Ghent, but after 800+ years, he's picked up a things here and there that lets him do alright if he has to deal with a computer. That's not to say that Saga Edition characters can't become "instant experts" thanks to the Skill Focus feat, but that would be akin to dumping a large number of your starting skill dice in d6 into a couple of skills with some specializations (i.e. 2 dice in Space Transport Piloting with YT-1300 as a specializtion).

Also, where d6 just lets you advance willy-nilly and can lead to some hefty imbalance in the group's capabilities (the bounty hunter with 12D in Blasters while the rest of the group averages about 6D in the same skill), Saga Edition uses of classes helps keep everyone on a generally even playing field, at least where general combat capabilities are concerned. It isn't 100% foolproof (a character with a starting Dexterity of 20 is going to be combat god from the word go in SWSE), but it usually doesn't lead to the wide variance that could occur in SWd6.

Skills are also a big change. D6 broke skills out quite a bit, and made combat abilities into skills. SWSE consolidated a lot of skills from its d20 predecessors, and as a d20 game combat stuff is handled by class leves (attack bonus, class defense bonuses). There's also the feat and talent system, which lets players further customize what their character can do outside of skills. In SWSE, skills are the basics of what a character can do, but its the talents and feats that set you apart from everyone else. Just about anyone can train to pilot a vehicle, but guys like Han and Wedge Antilles are going to be able to do things in their respective crafts that the average person wouldn't have a hope of replicating due to the feats and talents they've taken to further enhance their piloting abilities.

The Force is probably the most dramatic difference between the two. D6 had your classic three skills (Control, Sense, Alter), where SWSE just has Use the Force. In D6, you simply chose whatever powers you'd like for every pip you had in that respective Force skill, where SWSE if you only have UtF, you get access to some fairly minor yet basic Jedi abilities (sensing other Force users, limited telekinesis, telepathy), with the need to spend character level feats to pick up Force Training so you can get the more advanced powers such as enhancing your combat prowess, moving starfighters, hurling lightning, crushing someone's trachea, healing others, and blasting battle droids to bits with a wave of your hand. At low-levels, a Force Wizard (has Skill Focus in Use the Force) in SWSE is going to have an easy time overcoming their enemies' Defense scores, but that will begin to change at the higher levels, since Defense bonus progression (+1 per heroic level) quickly outstrips Skill check bonus (+1 for every 2 heroic levels), so by 20th level you'd be lucky to affect a fellow 20th level character with a Force power (which is why Yoda, Palpatine, and Dooku generally wound up going for their lightsabers in the prequels).

Force Points also work differently between systems. In D6, they gave you an ungodly boost to your skills, but in SWSE they just give you a minor boost, more along the lines of spending a Character Point in D6 to boost a skill check.

I'd say that's a decent start for a comparison between the two. As for which is better, that's a matter of personal choice. I know a few D6 fans that will stick with that system until their dying breath, while I'm a SWSE fanboy.
 

Although I've no experience of WEG's d6 star wars, I've heard people say that Force Users ruled the heavens and the earth in d6, but in SAGA classes are quite a bit more balanced.

True or not? I can only say that SAGA classes have been quite well balanced so far for me.

Cheers
 

It's been so long since I played Star Wars D6, I've forgotten a lot of the nuances (and I used to have a fair level of system mastery). Back in the day when I played it, hardly anything was known about the Old Republic; we only had the original trilogy to go off of and the EU was just getting started.

I have all three versions of the game and I know that I've felt some games of Star Wars d20 (RCR) can feel a lot like D&D if things aren't run correctly. I never had that feeling with d6, although that's probably because it's a totally different system.

I've no experience at all with Saga, other than leafing through the book and reading message board posts about it.

All very insightful comments, folks. Thank you!
 

I think that was a bit harsh. Remathilis's point was that d6 is a (mostly) classless system that allows you to upgrade any ability/skill when you get character points where as SWSE makes you pick a class at each level. The WEG edition allows the player to make a general character or a specific character using the same system but your abilities don't automatically go up unless you put the points in the skill and/or attribute.
And expressed as you have done so, that's a useful point to make. That the fundamental assumptions of character development are different. WEG's game allowed a character to progress specifically or in a more general manner, while the Saga edition utilizes an across-the-board advancement where characters get better at everything as they advance.

I'm getting the impression that the fundamental assumptions of character generation are pretty similar. Specifically, a starting character can either be a capable generalist, with a few specialties but nothing stellar, or they can be a specialist with amazing capability in one area and limited capability in other areas.


To JediSoth, I can state that I've yet to have a Saga game feel like D&D. The vastly different mechanics, tone, style, and adventure types really remove a lot of that D&D feeling of "kill things and take their stuff." My groups have had some of that (I went for a long time asking if the fallen foes had grenades, since grenades are fantastic and we never found shops), but even then it felt like money-grubbing space-farers, not mercenary adventurers.
 

Although I've no experience of WEG's d6 star wars, I've heard people say that Force Users ruled the heavens and the earth in d6, but in SAGA classes are quite a bit more balanced.
True or not? I can only say that SAGA classes have been quite well balanced so far for me.Cheers
Very true. A force user with low force skills is a weak character but when he got decent skill (5D-6D) he rules the game. You need to have a strict GM to balance the game.
In D6 there is no limit to the level of power you can achieve. So you can create some "mister perfect characters". 2 characters with the same experience can be very different in power level. Balance is a problem in D6 if you don't play with mature players.
D6 is definitely heroic though and I don't find the same feeling playing with Saga. Almost 20 years of star wars D6 doesn't leave you totally sane I think. But I like Saga too, we are testing the rules with my group and I found them good.
 

You know, I think people missed a big point that makes d6 a bit more 'heroic' in some ways: multiple actions.

In SWSE, you can take a small selection of actions per round: a standard, a move, and a minor. In d6, your number of actions are unlimited (well, sort of).

Essentially, every skill beyond your first inflicts a -1D penalty on ALL skills you made during your round. So, if I have a shooting skill of 6d6, I can shoot once with all my dice, shoot twice at 5d6 each, shoot three times at 4d6, etc...

Or, more to the point of the game, I can run through the hatchway (1 action), pull off two shots in succession against those stormtroopers (2 actions), and then hop on my speeder bike and retreat (1 action) - if I'm willing to take a -3D penalty on all my skill checks. In SWSE, those sorts of plays are not available.

d6 is a much more "loose" system, and it can lead to some abuses by players if approached from a purely mechanical stance. However, I feel it fits the game better than SWSE for a bunch of reasons:

1) The multiple actions of d6 fit the cinematic flair of Star Wars much better, in my opinion.

2) d6 is pretty "rules-light", and very quick to learn. I've run it many times, and each time even my stupid players figure out the rules within about fifteen minutes. SWSE... not so much - there are definitely corner cases.

3) Force points in d6 fit the game. You spend a point, you get a HUGE bonus. However, if you spend the point to save your own butt, it's burned. Worse, if you spend it to do something actively evil, you gain a Dark Side Point (and the more DS points you get, the more likely you'll turn into Vader and become a very annoying NPC). Even cooler, if you spend a force point to do something heroic ("Go on! I'll hold the door! Pew pew pew!"), you get your force point back at the end of the adventure, and may even earn another one.

4)Regarding specialization - I find that while d6 tends to have specializations at first (a gun specialist can start with a skill as high as 6d6, while a guy with absolutely no gun experience and a poor base attribute will be using 2d6), these even out rather quickly. The higher your skills get, the more they cost - I've found during play that most of my players start putting them into skills they sort of suck at, using the logic that it's better to improve two or three low skills than it is to improve a skill you're already the best at.

Another point here is that characters in the movies had different roles, but they could do a little bit of everything. in d6, there are no "trained only" skills - everyone can fly an X-Wing, even if they're an Ewok (or, say, a young kid with Jedi powers who shoots everyone in a hangar in one of the most annoying scenes in any movie... EVER). I'm not 100% on SWSE, but I'm pretty sure there are "trained only" skills, which kind of detracts from the movie feel of the game.

5) Regarding Wild Dice: I know the d6 system uses them now, but I never saw them used in d6 SW. I think maybe they were an addition of the 2nd edition? In any case, I hate them, and we house-ruled them away when we started playing generic d6, so I have no experience with them.

6) The Force: Yeah... SWSE is probably more balanced. But, to be fair, the original game was built on the assumption that there was very little in the way of force powers available (it was, after all, set in the original movie period), and that you'd need a Yoda-like trainer to improve what little skills you had. While they were pretty powerful, I never felt like they dominated the game. Mind you, we never got too far using force powers - they weren't really an interest among my group of gamers, and still aren't.

Alright, all that being said, I think d6 is far preferable to SWSE in terms of capturing the feel of the Star Wars movies - primarily because d6 is a rules-light system that spends a huge chunk of it's page space encouraging role-playing over mechanics. To compare the two in terms of mechanics is unfair to d6, because a perfectly balanced mechanical system was never the main intent of the system. The system was built to reflect the Star Wars movies, and to be a fast-running system that was friendly to newbs.

SWSE, by the way, is a good system. I like it... I just think the d6 system is better.

(P.S. I love the d6 system, so I am quite biased. The game I'm working on for the RPG Design Contest borrows one or two ideas from the d6 system, and I firmly believe that it remains one of the best thought-out games of all time).
 

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