Forked Thread: Star Wars: WEG D6 v. Saga/D20?
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Donovan Morningfire
First Post
Well, it's good in theory, but if you've got a character in SWd6 that has a 10D blasters skill, and only needs to get a 15 or better on his dice to shoot someone, it can lead to some very over-the-top scenarios the likes of which you'd see in a B-movie action flick, as well as making some players (namely the ones that didn't hyper-specialize) feel like second-stringers as they watch that one character dominate the scene. Gets even worse with Force Powers, since you can use them as often as you like and generally without a penalty if you fail.
One thing about the d6 system, and this was allegedly stated by Bill Slavicsek (one of the designers of the game), was that it wasn't really designed for long-term campaigns. Instead, the intent was that you'd make a character, play them through a story arc (roughly 8 to 12 sessions), then retire the character and then roll up a new one. But when you've got characters that have been in play for several months, the sky is the limit.
Some folks may like those kinds of "over-the-top superheroic" characters, others don't. As with any RPG, each gamer's mileage will vary.
DerekSTheRed
Explorer
I generally prefer SWSE because of the balance between force users and non-force users. Having said that, WEG did a lot of good things with Star Wars d6 and I still use a lot of their fluff in my SWSE campaign.
The only thing I like in d6 more than SWSE is the ease of making NPCs and characters in general. Whipping out NPCs in 3.x or SWSE can be time consuming when you consider that NPCs will probably die in a couple of rounds. Star Wars also has primarily NPC bad guys and few "monsters" like a Rancor or a Reek meaning you get to make a lot of NPCs for an adventure.
I know people complain about 4E not having the same rules for PCs as they do for NPCs. I love it since it makes my life as a GM much easier. Star Wars d6 gets the best of both worlds since the PCs and NPCs are made with the same rules, but they are much easier to create a bunch in a relatively little time.
The only thing I like in d6 more than SWSE is the ease of making NPCs and characters in general. Whipping out NPCs in 3.x or SWSE can be time consuming when you consider that NPCs will probably die in a couple of rounds. Star Wars also has primarily NPC bad guys and few "monsters" like a Rancor or a Reek meaning you get to make a lot of NPCs for an adventure.
I know people complain about 4E not having the same rules for PCs as they do for NPCs. I love it since it makes my life as a GM much easier. Star Wars d6 gets the best of both worlds since the PCs and NPCs are made with the same rules, but they are much easier to create a bunch in a relatively little time.
It's not only good in theory, it works. We've been playing D6 for so long that some characters achieve scores near 10D. There is no problem with that. The player may be the problem if he wants to do everything with his blaster.
Star Wars D6 was designed to be very heroic by the way. But you are right each gamer is different. We for example have a groupe of powerful characters, they all have some skills between 8D-10D. They are not super heroes blasting their way through everything.
The main problem in D6 is the force. Yes there is no balance between force user and the other. Lucky me none of my players like the jedi concept so no force users in our group. As some said earlier Saga has much better rules for the force user.
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Donovan Morningfire
First Post
Well, if everyone's in the same general skill range, then it's not an issue as everyone is around the same level. It's a problem when you've got one guy that hyper-focused in a type of blaster to get 10D by the 10th session where everyone is has a around a 5D, meaning he's going to dominate the combat becuase he can afford to do so much more and still be just as effective as the other, less focused characters.
And Jedi with lightsabers and the lightsaber combat power just get astronomically worse, on top of Force users already having way too much potential to get out of control if the GM doesn't keep a tight reign on such characters, which conversely can lead to the Jedi player getting (perhaps rightfully) annoyed that they're being held back while the other characters can advance as they please.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
We have one player with some combat skills around 10D one around 7D and the other between 4D and 6D. There is no problem among the players. Everybody have fun. I'm happy I'm gamemastering with such a group. This is a very mature group. The problem is not the rules but who is using them.
For the lightsaber you are right, GM will have to struggle to maintain balance.
D6 is fun
Saga is balance
Wik
First Post
It is, I think, one of the best game mechanics ever made. I think if you wanted to use it in d20, you'd have to do some mathwork... apply a penalty (say, -3) to each extra action. In essence, every character would get Rapid shot for free, it would just apply to everything.
In my entry for the RPG Design Contest, characters can take multiple actions, and this was inspired by the d6 system. Basically, a character can perform two actions with no penalty. Performing one action gives a +10% bonus, and if a character chooses to peform 3 or more actions, he gets a cumulative -10% bonus. There are some other things that fit in with this, as well.
To me, the big problem with the d6 multi-action system is that it incorporated out-of-turn dodges, and you had to dodge each attack directed at you. And each dodge counted as an "Action" on your next turn. So, if you dodged five attacks, you'd get a -5D penalty on all your actions on your next turn. It meant there was a lot of dice-rolling, and you could be forced out of actions if you got exposed to open fire. It didn't pop up too much, but when it did, it was annoying.
I agree with this. Even if a character has a code of 10D, it really doesn't mean too much. He can take five shots with his blaster at 6D each. Or maybe he'll take seven at 4D. That's fine - because if you run a game as suggested in the book, there should really only be one or two big firefights in a typical session (the SW book suggests only a few firefights, a chase scene, a space scene, and a few RP scenes). And your blaster skill means nothing in a space scene, and only means something in a chase scene if you have an opportunity to shoot a gun.
nitpick here... Slavicsek worked on the 2nd edition, and not the first. He's credited only as an editor for the first edition.
That being said, you're probably on the money. I can see how the game would be put forward that way, and it really fits what the game was trying to accomplish. It was trying to emulate movies with a finish and an end, not a TV Series that progresses ever onward.
pawsplay
Hero
In WEG, Force users started off slightly weak, because they gave up attribute dice for their Force skills. In that sense, the lightsaber is almost a consolation for being a little less awesome overall. However, Force users pick up a fair amount of ability. In the Rebellion era, advancement is slow going, as it is difficult to train without a teacher. In other eras, it can be pretty fast.
There is an important break point, and that's 7D. At that level, I can do anything with a Difficult rating without sweating. I can do TWO actions of that difficulty with about even odds of succeeding at each. Alternatively, I can power up some of the more impressive Force powers in one round. Basically imagine a D&D wizard who could suddenly apply Metamagic feats willy nilly with only a minor increase in spell level, and you have some idea of what to expect. On the plus side, Darth Vader and Count Dooku can be built with 12D or less in each of their Force skills and do everything you see on screen.
The powers are actually balanced pretty well, on a use-by-use basis. The big problem with them was that they tended to get over-used. Flying? Enhance Ability, then pilot. Badly wounded? Endure Pain. And so forth. Characters could do stuff all day. Whereas major force use always looked impressive in the movies.
Starting with 2nd edition, the game became saddled with a goofy Dodge mechanic, which basically slashed difficulty numbers in half a lot of the time. I think it took things a little farther away from what we see in the movies. Still, it does speed things up a bit. It's goofy because you can still add your whole Dodge roll if you take a total defense. Since 2e also introduced the Wild Die, it kind of fixed the problem twice, where it was hard to hit people at medium range. Not so great.
2e pretty much was no good. 2e Revised, however, took 2e and made it simple again, which was the root of what made it a great game. It left the Wild Die and the Dodge changes in place, which then migrated to the WEG D6 family of games.
D6 vs. Saga
1. Skill use - D6 wins. Good dice for heroic characters in general and no untrained skills made WEG feel very heroic. Princess Leia can copilot, young Kenobi can repair a hyperdrive, and Qui Gon can sneak. The only things you have to have a skill for in D6 are Advanced Skills, like surgery or building starships.
2. Combat flow - A toss up. WEG was more action-oriented and tended to flow better, but fights usually ended in a few hits. Saga is more rigid and less overall fun, but easier to balance. Saga is a bit easier to powergame, since damage in the D6 game was fairly static, except for Lightsabers, which would pretty much kill you anyway.
3. Combat deadliness - Both are insufficiently lethal.
4. Jedi - D6 made it easy to build and run Jedi of varied talents while still leaving a lot of room for customization. Saga tends to focus on the Force suit, with Use the Force picking up some slack with minor uses of the Force. In D6, Powers get used too much, while in Saga they are artificially limited, often in ways that don't make sense. Powers in D6 were more versatile and holistically defined, which I count as an advantage. Powers in Saga are more balanced with other characters. Advantage: Saga wins, by a hair.
5. Aliens - D6 aliens that were too much unlike humans were pretty badly defined. Wookiees were all right, but Mon Calamari had a bunch of modifiers about being humid or dry, Ewoks had a wonky skill mechanic, and so forth. Since D6 has neither Feats nor a Merit/Flaw system, aliens were hard to balance. Saga wins.
6. Cutting off hands - Both systems use clunky rules hedges to allow Jedi to purposefully maim someone instead of killing them. Neither has good crippling or amputation rules.
7. Written content - D6 had much better writing. In fact, a lot of the EU stuff originated in classic WEG products. Saga tends to be more breezy, a bit looser with established canon, and in general less well researched.
8. Starship combat - Both Saga and D6 have good systems, a toss up. They use almost interchangeable statistics: Fire Control/Int, for instance.
9. Reasons to act like it's Star Wars - WEG wins. The way Force Points work, the kind of modifiers you get in combat, the scaling of difficulties, the use of Character Points, and all the rest were set up to encourage swashbuckling adventure. Saga does pretty well, but basically holds its breath. A lot of good moves in Saga are special powers or just very difficult.
There is an important break point, and that's 7D. At that level, I can do anything with a Difficult rating without sweating. I can do TWO actions of that difficulty with about even odds of succeeding at each. Alternatively, I can power up some of the more impressive Force powers in one round. Basically imagine a D&D wizard who could suddenly apply Metamagic feats willy nilly with only a minor increase in spell level, and you have some idea of what to expect. On the plus side, Darth Vader and Count Dooku can be built with 12D or less in each of their Force skills and do everything you see on screen.
The powers are actually balanced pretty well, on a use-by-use basis. The big problem with them was that they tended to get over-used. Flying? Enhance Ability, then pilot. Badly wounded? Endure Pain. And so forth. Characters could do stuff all day. Whereas major force use always looked impressive in the movies.
Starting with 2nd edition, the game became saddled with a goofy Dodge mechanic, which basically slashed difficulty numbers in half a lot of the time. I think it took things a little farther away from what we see in the movies. Still, it does speed things up a bit. It's goofy because you can still add your whole Dodge roll if you take a total defense. Since 2e also introduced the Wild Die, it kind of fixed the problem twice, where it was hard to hit people at medium range. Not so great.
2e pretty much was no good. 2e Revised, however, took 2e and made it simple again, which was the root of what made it a great game. It left the Wild Die and the Dodge changes in place, which then migrated to the WEG D6 family of games.
D6 vs. Saga
1. Skill use - D6 wins. Good dice for heroic characters in general and no untrained skills made WEG feel very heroic. Princess Leia can copilot, young Kenobi can repair a hyperdrive, and Qui Gon can sneak. The only things you have to have a skill for in D6 are Advanced Skills, like surgery or building starships.
2. Combat flow - A toss up. WEG was more action-oriented and tended to flow better, but fights usually ended in a few hits. Saga is more rigid and less overall fun, but easier to balance. Saga is a bit easier to powergame, since damage in the D6 game was fairly static, except for Lightsabers, which would pretty much kill you anyway.
3. Combat deadliness - Both are insufficiently lethal.
4. Jedi - D6 made it easy to build and run Jedi of varied talents while still leaving a lot of room for customization. Saga tends to focus on the Force suit, with Use the Force picking up some slack with minor uses of the Force. In D6, Powers get used too much, while in Saga they are artificially limited, often in ways that don't make sense. Powers in D6 were more versatile and holistically defined, which I count as an advantage. Powers in Saga are more balanced with other characters. Advantage: Saga wins, by a hair.
5. Aliens - D6 aliens that were too much unlike humans were pretty badly defined. Wookiees were all right, but Mon Calamari had a bunch of modifiers about being humid or dry, Ewoks had a wonky skill mechanic, and so forth. Since D6 has neither Feats nor a Merit/Flaw system, aliens were hard to balance. Saga wins.
6. Cutting off hands - Both systems use clunky rules hedges to allow Jedi to purposefully maim someone instead of killing them. Neither has good crippling or amputation rules.
7. Written content - D6 had much better writing. In fact, a lot of the EU stuff originated in classic WEG products. Saga tends to be more breezy, a bit looser with established canon, and in general less well researched.
8. Starship combat - Both Saga and D6 have good systems, a toss up. They use almost interchangeable statistics: Fire Control/Int, for instance.
9. Reasons to act like it's Star Wars - WEG wins. The way Force Points work, the kind of modifiers you get in combat, the scaling of difficulties, the use of Character Points, and all the rest were set up to encourage swashbuckling adventure. Saga does pretty well, but basically holds its breath. A lot of good moves in Saga are special powers or just very difficult.
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