FR Update at WotC-Year of the Ageless One

Uzzy said:
You know, there are many ways the designers could have fixed perceived problems in the Realms, without resorting to such drastic measures as these. (Regardless of the lack of truth behind these problems) Better presentation, limiting the scope of novels, using the likes of Elminster as they were originally intended etc. They could even have just left the Realms as it is, and make another setting that would appeal to others who dislike the Realmsian style.

But for whatever reason, WoTC decided they needed to overhaul the entire thing. It makes me sad. I'll do my bit to tell WoTC how I feel about these changes, and not buy the 4th Edition Realms book. All I can do, really. I've got just about enough material to last me a while though.

The new Realms is not something I'd want to play in. Ah well. I'm upset that countless plots, characters and groups will never now get the attention they deserve (I wanted to know what would happen between Alusair and Calednei, for one). Meh, I'm at the acceptance level right now.

The funny thing is the Spellplague is... irrelevant with regard to the things that people like about the changes. If you want to ease the burden of canon, the utterly dominant change is the 94 year jump. Everything else is gravy. Which makes the proposed changes look like a deliberate chainsaw attack (we want to savage the FRs, how do we justify it?) as opposed to an attempt to reduce a perceived (real or no) canon/high level NPC overload. An example of the later might be:

An anti-RSE....

At t=0, Mystra and friends decide that enough is enough and off Cyric (AFAIK the most unpopular diety). Ao smacks Mystra around, resulting in minor weave changes appropriate to the new ruleset (and finds temporary replacements for Cyric for those regions that need them). Seeing how well giving mortals a god's job worked last time, Cyric's replacement/replacements get a *long* education. With Cyric's portfolio temporarily lapsed, FR enters a period known at "The Great Calm" where nothing much happens (by FR standards). In real-world terms, WotC agrees to publish nothing canon in The Calm. We end up then with:

Early Calm, familiar political scene, familiar NPCs, no new canon.
Mid Calm, familiar political scene, new NPCs, no canon (blank slate)

At some point in here, we introduce the dragonborn. Say that the gods got sick and tired of squabbling over the reservoir of draconic magic that got stripped from the dragons (4e dragons aren't spellcasters) at the beginning of the calm and sent the pile of energy down to Toril, where it affects the weaker magic using populace causing them to give birth to the dragonborn.

Late Calm, familiar political scene, new NPCs, no canon, dragonborn.

And finally, Post Calm, familiar political scene, all new NPCs (save the commercially requisite ones), new canon, dragonborn.


You get something for everyone. You want novels as canon, play post-Calm. You like the current NPC cast, play early Calm. You find the current (or novel based) canon overwhelming, play mid or late Calm. All the NPC/canon overload issues are dealt with by a time jump. Nothing anyone considers "sacred" is destroyed and you have a built in division for a given group's desired "canon" level.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Neil Bishop said:
It doesn't matter if FR4E's campaign setting is a marvellous piece of work (I think most people, according to various reviews etc..., consider the FRCS for 3E to be outstanding)
It's a very good and thorough piece of work, but in retrospect it spends too many pages flatly cataloguing, without distinguishing what's fundamental about the setting and what's peripheral, and not enough describing what the Realms is like and how it works. It's not surprising that many fail to understand Faerûn's high-level intrigue, for instance, because it isn't described in any one place. In contrast take the far more coherent 1987 Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, or the Eberron Campaign Setting which lays out that world's sensibility, principles and influences at the start.

Wizards seemingly realized this, and have said they're making the 4E Campaign Guide more focused, in part by removing parts of the Realms (including Unther, Halruaa and Chondath) the designers feel lie outside the setting's core feel. On the other hand, they're making changes which concede to ideas about the Realms they know are mistaken, having not even attempted to clarify or explain the actual situation, and Rich Baker at one point referred dismissively to this kind of explanation as 'lecturing'. It really would not be all that pedagogically difficult a task.
because, within no time, a series of novels will come out and resolve some of the interesting plot hooks that are to be found in the new campaign setting.
Although Rich has said the RSEs will fall off for a while after the Spellplague, I also see little precedent for hope that Realms novels won't continue to hotshot and use up plot threads faster than they replenish them.
Also, FR3E suffered from not having an introductory adventure or series of introductory adventures that would show a new FR DM how to use the setting as his own campaign world.
Yes; extraordinarily there's only one really good, representative introductory adventure for the Realms -- Ed's FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar -- and it's too small (two-thirds was cut in editing) to really show off important aspects of Realms adventuring such as the hallmark multi-sided, multi-stranded conflicts. (The recent Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land looks a lot like the campaign adventure we should have got 15 years earlier, but it was too compressed in its use of historical elements, too tied to the ongoing timeline, too short on the social aspects of the Realms, and too late.)
I suppose my essential point is this: the campaign setting can be good or bad, that's almost irrelevant, what really matters is whether there will be a clear and defined strategy as to how the novels and the game world will interact. (2)
I think there have been several good-faith attempts to make the relationship work better, but the two have different real and perceived calls on the setting, and again, there's no reason to think the new Realms will solve this legitimately hard problem.

Bob Salvatore's insistence on using dwarves as comic relief still baffles me, given his respect for and debt to Tolkien, who did so much to redeem them from that. As for Faerûn-authentic naming, that's something that otherwise first-rank Realms authors, such as Jeff Grubb and Elaine Cunningham, took a while to figure out.
 
Last edited:

Neil Bishop said:
2: Of course, I don't think there will be for two reasons: (i) I am sure that the novels are significantly more profitable than the game world; and (ii) I don't think that this sort of strategic thinking is something that WotC would like to do for fear of it tying their hands if they have a new idea later.

Here's an interesting quote from the WoTC boards about this subject:

WotC_RichBaker said:
A good point, and one that I can't easily address off the top of my head. I'm not well versed in what the Living Realms campaign is planning (hey, there's only one of me!) but I think you're right--we would want to treat major plot arcs in Living Realms as canon events for the world. My hope is that we'd avoid real RSE-plot threads in any format for a while, and make sure that canon advances are mirrored across all formats at a reasonable pace--so novels, game product, Living Realms, and D&D Insider material all pull in more or less the same direction.

This plan has alot of potential if they stick to it.
 

outsider said:
Here's an interesting quote from the WoTC boards about this subject:



This plan has alot of potential if they stick to it.

Nah. It sounds like the death of plotlines to me, Dark Sun style.
DM (at the end of a session): And as you approach the city of Tyr/Zhentil Keep/whatever, you meet the contact that will smuggle you into the slave pens. Next week we will pick up with the negotiations and intrigue.

DM (the following week): Sorry folks, the latest book came out, and apparently Drizzt and Elminster showed up, freed the slaves and killed the god-king. Sorry. So we're heading on to your next destination, and we just have to hope WotC doesn't kill that plot line too.


The only reasonable thing to do is just play in the Realms and ignore whatever garbage WotC hacks out for a 'storyline', or just play in your own world where you don't have to worry about this kind of thing.
 

I wish Rich luck with that intention, but as stated there it's no different a plan than has been tried before, with limited success. Trying to coordinate RPGA events too is not promising, especially given the dreary precedent of the Living City campaign.
 

Although Rich has said the RSEs will fall off for a while after the Spellplague, I also see little precedent for hope that Realms novels won't continue to hotshot and use up plot threads faster than they replenish them.

I'm sure Rich has said that in good faith but the reality is that RSEs sell novels and novels make more money than games. The plot threads will be used up on no time, I am sure. Wasn't a similar commitment made at the time of 3E?

I think there have been several good-faith attempts to make the relationship work better, but the two have different real and perceived calls on the setting, and again, there's no reason to think the new Realms will solve this legitimately hard problem.

That's my guess too and, absent a solution of this problem, in no time at all FR will once again be a difficult setting to come to terms with for new DMs because of the preponderance of novels.

Of course, this is UNLESS WotC can make (and keep!) a commitment to leave aside a certain (and significant) area as a novel-free zone. However, this area should be the subject of a range of introductory products. I'm thinking of a cross between the BECMI version of D&D's Thunder Rift accessory and 3.5E's Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde but with a major emphasis on FR-flavoured power groups.

The grey box provides a precedent for this sort of commitment: subsequent publications provide a precedent for not keeping this commitment! Yes, Sembia, I am looking at you....

Bob Salvatore's insistence on using dwarves as comic relief still baffles me, given his respect for and debt to Tolkien, who did so much to redeem them from that. As for Faerûn-authentic naming, that's something that otherwise first-rank Realms authors, such as Jeff Grubb and Elaine Cunningham, took a while to figure out.

To me this is a key part in protecting the FR IP. If I ran Wizards (and I hope I never do: good hobby, bad business!), I would be including clauses in the writers' contracts that expressly forbid the "jarjarbinksinisation" (OK, so I invented a new word) of FR. I think, personally, that sort of nonsense is more damaging than the appearances of Elminster and the Chosen that is often moaned about.

On the subject of the "jarjarbinksinisation" of FR, I would also be putting similar restraints on the RPGA with Living Realms. Things that happened with Raven's Bluff were an embarrassment both to FR and the D&D game. If they're not going to treat the brand with some respect, take it off them.

So, yes, the first time a cleric of Sune is named after a pr0n actress, the RPGA loses the setting!
 

I still say it doesn't sound too bad. The popular areas haven't changed, and I think I see a pattern here for typical Realms campaigns:

1-10: You start off in the North/Sword Coast/Cormyr with low level adventures. It's pretty much like the FR have always been.

11-20: With more experience under your belt, you can tackle the areas of the Realms that have been affected by the Spellplague. These are probably dangerous areas, but the challenges I'd imagine are probably intended for paragon level adventures. One thing to remember about the FR is that they go all the way back to 1e rules, so adventures past level 10 are going to be harder to set up, since the setting as originally written was set up with the 1e rules. I'm guessing the Spellplague gives them an excuse to put in adventuring areas more suitable for paragon level players that didn't exist before.

21-30: Probably involves the planes or something. Dunno.

I also agree that they should probably reign in some of the writers, particularly the freelancers. Whoever's running the creative side of the Realms should take both games and novels into account, have some people like Baker or whoever's in charge at WotC, Greenwood, Salvatore, and Cunninham come up with a big overall plot line, and then make sure the other authors don't go around futzing too much with the setting canon. Of course, some plot lines will get resolved, but maybe set things up like adventures where the PCs can accomplish similar goals to things happening in the novels (kind of like the old DL when it was first created).
 

Whisperfoot said:
I actually liked them and had considered setting a campaign there someday. :\

But, you didn't actually do so. That speaks volumes right there. It may have been interesting, but, just not interesting enough. Sounds like a whole pile of the Realms material to me.

Anyone else think that the new FR looks a lot like the old Scarred Lands?
 

Hussar said:
But, you didn't actually do so. That speaks volumes right there. It may have been interesting, but, just not interesting enough. Sounds like a whole pile of the Realms material to me.

So anything that doesn't reach of a 'threshold of X number of campaigns actually use this' gets the Giant Not-Making-Enough-Money Eraser? Thats a poor way to handle a setting.
 

Voss said:
So anything that doesn't reach of a 'threshold of X number of campaigns actually use this' gets the Giant Not-Making-Enough-Money Eraser? Thats a poor way to handle a setting.

Well this is a game setting after all, you'd assume that the material you present will actually be used in the game. If that's not happening then what's the point? Of course FR is also a setting for novels and that complicates matters.

Oh, and they do need to make enough money. Because if they're losing money you won't be seeing any new realms stuff at all.
 

Remove ads

Top