From R&C: Fighters & Armor

Hairfoot said:
Yes, criticism accepted. But I've given up all hope that 4E might halt the march toward player characters becoming arcane versions of Space Marines.
Buddy, it's been stated multiple times that fighters are not going to be arcane - the Races and Classes books + recent author blurbs have all been pointing to the fighter getting non-magical manoeuvres like the Bo9S classes. And really, you should try to tone down your posts a bit, because you're coming off as a bit snooty and we all know you're not :)

cheers,
--N
 

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Reynard said:
Everybody was a farmer when their wasn't a war on.
Well, an estimated 90ish% of western Europe was, yes. The other 10% was middle classes and higher (nobility, royalty and so forth).

cheers,
--N
 

Reynard said:
That would be unfortunate. There is no reason why only an eastern flavored setting should provide for that kind of character archetype in D&D.

Reynard said:
Everybody was a farmer when their wasn't a war on.
Well, since we don't have 4E's complete rules, I'll assume similarities from 3E. I'm also going to generalize on a lot of historical examples, rather than make this post absurdly long.

The implied power-level of the vast majority of people means that a well-armed warrior or commoner/expert with Martial Weapons Proficiency is not ineffective by any means. The laws passed in England that required certain people to be proficient in the longbow? Those were laws requiring that they took martial weapons proficiency. Just because they knew how to use the bow, though, doesn't mean they're heroes. PC-classed characters in D&D are always heroic characters.

To take that further, though, the nobility or the more wealthy footmen weren't farmers when a war wasn't on. They administered their lands, administered their minor farm, served their lord, or, if they were mercenaries, looked around for their next paycheck. In order to not have a "woodsman" type background, we would have to have someone who was a member of the nobility who fought primarily with the bow. And that, by the way, pretty much always means someone armored - so an armored archer.

That's problematic because throughout most all human cultures, brave, admirable warriors are the ones who got in their opponents' faces and triumphed hand to hand. Ranged weapons are valuable, but not glamorous. And that's important, because virtually everywhere that a nobility has emerged, it has been a warrior nobility. And while not every noble was a warrior by any means, it was part of the implied social fabric that they would serve as defenders of their social order. It was allowable for people of the lower classes to be archers because that wasn't their job.

In times where they did not defend effectively, they were reviled and lost much of their power. Because all power only exists because people believe that you have it. For examples of such things happening, we can point to the turmoil arising from the French and German nobility's inability to stop the Viking invasions, as well as the inability of French lords to effectively defend their lands during the Hundred Years War, where they relied greatly on their castles and allowed the enemy armies to pillage their lands. We can even look at the drastically reduced political importance of the nobility everywhere after guns democratized warfare.

Japan and China are remarkable because, culturally, they valued guile, technique, and trickery far more than the Western world tended to. Thus an armored noble archer was permissible there. The only other examples I can think of are the various horse-archers of the middle-east and the northern steppes. But honestly, D&D has never had mounted combat in the forefront, and I don't think they've ever been easily simulated. And with the exception of some of the Byzantine troops, I don't think I'd characterize any of them as Fighters anyway - they look more like Rangers or Barbarians to me.

The horse-archers are also, arguably, not really part of the Western milieu, which is pretty much the standard one for D&D (I would argue that the monk is there due to the martial arts craze of the 70's). Otherwise an "Oriental Adventures" book would be silly. It would just be "Adventures". ;)

So, in the end, I guess I'd say that I DO think that an armored archer archetype is a bit of an aberration from the standard D&D setting, and I don't have a problem with them coming up in a later supplement. Who knows - maybe it'll even be possible to "Fighter-up" the Ranger in the 4E rules to simulate that archetype.
 
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Well a nobleman could become a master with the bow through hunting rather then through warfare and thus not really have the whole heavy suit of armor thing. Certainly it seems that every fantasy novel I read has the nobles going out hunting all the time. On the other hand if somebody learned to use the bow by being a master hunter, then some outdoor type skills seem quite apropriate even if they are a spoiled noble.
 

NaturalZero said:
Sounds more traditionally like the rogue or even ranger to me. It should be possible, i just dont know if the fighter has to be the one to pull it off.
If I was going to use a shield I was always going to take TWF so that I can grab a spiked shield w/improved shield bash and be able to use it without a problem. So I dont think that character concept should be canned because it seems like a very valid "defenderesque" thing to do.
 

Sadrik said:
If I was going to use a shield I was always going to take TWF so that I can grab a spiked shield w/improved shield bash and be able to use it without a problem. So I dont think that character concept should be canned because it seems like a very valid "defenderesque" thing to do.
It would be really, really awesome if shield usage was treated as a special case of TWF and not an inherently different thing.
 



Re archers as rangers/woodsmen: The correlation sort of does make sense, in that your stereotypical amazing archer has perception abilities out the ying-yang, the ability to spot a mouse from a hundred yards out and shoot it, something that's beyond a 3E fighter per RAW (I houseruled two secondary skills per 1st-level fighter specifically to get around this hole) – he can shoot it, sure, but he won't see it in the first place.

Personally I think archery should be a valid secondary mode for the front-line fighter, though the ranger should be better at it and the rogue perhaps equal. Arrow fights! :)

Re TWF: I too want this in there for front-line fighters. It could be the go-to mode for clearing minions (as in sort of is in 3E, but it doesn't seem to matter very much) or it could be the mode optimized for landing a hit, as opposed to doing lots of damage (which would be the two-hander's role)

Isn't shield use sort-of considered a special case of TWF in 3.5e, if you have that feat from Player's Handbook II?
 

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