Gay Rights

[Umbran]

My parents were married for 66 years until my dad died in 2006, but that's hardly the norm.

Which makes your accusation of people "lying" (meaning, knowingly and willingly speaking something they don't believe is true) even less solid. It only holds for people who have *no intention* of it being until death. That's getting to the point of such being a bugaboo.

 

[Umbran]

This is odd statement to me. Religion doesn't meddle in my life, at all.

You probably fall into one of the groups that the US's dominant religions don't have a problem with. Be thankful for that. But recognize that it is a happy place in which you reside, in which not everyone does.

 

[Bullgrit]

You probably fall into one of the groups that the US's dominant religions don't have a problem with. Be thankful for that. But recognize that it is a happy place in which you reside, in which not everyone does.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?461865-Gay-Rights/page9#ixzz3eTVnWCyR

But in what way does religion directly meddle in someone's life? I already said that I agree that religion wants to use government to meddle, as do many organizations, (e.g. Occupy Wall Street, environmentalists, etc.). I would agree, also, if someone said religion meddles with government, but how does religion skip the middle man and meddle in one's life? (Assuming one is not of that religion, and thereby tacitly agrees to abide by that religion.)

Religion, like *everyone*, thinks that if everyone agreed with them, the world would be a happier place. I'm sure religion would love for me to attend church, but I haven't in decades, and no one has meddled in my life to get me to go. (Other than the rare instance of someone going door to door through the neighborhood to invite me, as part of a general outreach. They didn't single me out.)

Bullgrit

 

[Morrus]

But in what way does religion directly meddle in someone's life? I already said that I agree that religion wants to use government to meddle, as do many organizations, (e.g. Occupy Wall Street, environmentalists, etc.).

That *is* the way it meddles in peoples' life. And yes, other organizations do that, too. That doesn't make it OK. It just happens to be the one we're talking about right now.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But in what way does religion directly meddle in someone's life?

Blue Laws are a common- but diminishing- one. If you don't know, they're the reasons why you couldn't buy alcohol (and other vice-related products) on certain days or in certain forms in certain places.

Many of the anti-miscegenation laws pre-Loving were defended vociferously on religious grounds, as are the anti-Marriage Equality efforts.

How many religious national holidays close stores when it is inconvenient for you?

In some countries, religion can affect what political office, food, housing, or medical aid- if any- you are eligible to receive. It can also turn your speech into a crime.

 

[KirayaTiDrekan]

This is odd statement to me. Religion doesn't meddle in my life, at all. And even if it did, it doesn't have any real power to make do or not do anything. And isn't religion's involvement in marriage only with those who specifically want a religions ceremony? I mean, you can get married at the courthouse, right?

Now, I do agree that many religious people would like to convince/control government to meddle in people's lives according to their own beliefs, but that is true of many institutions.

Bullgrit

One glaring example - The political ambitions of several of my friends are stymied because, as atheists, they cannot run for office in their home states.

Nearly every objection to marriage equality I've seen has stemmed from religious reasoning.

Religion meddles. Its sort of the point of religion, really.

 

[Morrus]

Oh, in some countries religion utterly dominates everyday life, often in cruel or restrictive ways.

 

[Umbran]

But in what way does religion directly meddle in someone's life?

Well, let us be clear - religion itself is an abstract concept, not a sentient being. Religion cannot take actions. A religious organization will, in the name of the religion. That's probably what he was speaking about.

I already said that I agree that religion wants to use government to meddle, as do many organizations, (e.g. Occupy Wall Street, environmentalists, etc.). I would agree, also, if someone said religion meddles with government

And since government governs our lives, religion is thus meddling with us. If religious influence leads to a law against who I may sleep with, religion is meddling in my life.

but how does religion skip the middle man and meddle in one's life? (Assuming one is not of that religion, and thereby tacitly agrees to abide by that religion.)

I don't think removing the middle man is required to consider it meddling in my life, but...

How about a church that advises a family to send their kid to Conversion Therapy to cure them of being gay?

How about a religious organization that encourages its members to try to convert young boys, under the auspices of a youth group not run by the organization?

How about a religious organization that digs out personal information on doctors or nurses who work in abortion clinics, and publishes them online?

(The middle one happened to me, personally, when I was a Boy Scout. I was not amused, and had far more willpower than expected, such that it blew up in their faces a bit.).

 

[Bullgrit]

Yeah, I know how religion meddles in other countries. I'm discussing things from a US (and possibly UK, or even "western") perspective.

What prompted me to ask the question was how the original statement was made in response to another statement.

I just think that the government has no business whatsoever in marriage. It's just another way to meddle in our lives.

In response was said:

Honestly, I have the exact opposite view. Religion should not be involved in marriage (except for those who specifically want a religious ceremony). Religion meddles far too much in our lives and most definitely has an overreach problem.

One says, government shouldn't meddle in one's life. The response is, "I have the exact opposite view," and religion shouldn't meddle in one's life. Then I ask how does religion meddle in one's life? And everyone points out how religion meddles in government. Well, that's not the exact opposite -- that is actually nearly the same. Both are lamenting government meddling in lives.

Even when I asked how religion meddles, everyone's response is to point out how government meddles. See? I agree that government meddles in lives (as you've given examples). And I agree that religion meddles in government.

If government pokes you with a stick, even at the direction of religion, it is *government* poking you with a stick. When someone says, "I don't like government poking me with a stick," it doesn't make sense to say, "I feel the exact opposite; I don't like religion poking me with a stick." That's not "the exact opposite".

Bullgrit

 

[Morrus]

I don't think you're going to get a different answer, Bullgrit. The meddling of which most of us a speaking is, indeed, of the via-government or legislation variety.