D&D 5E Great Weapon Master vs. Hex/Hunter's Mark

[clearstream]

You're forgetting one thing - how it invalidates OTHER melee weapons than Greatweapons.

(Aside from the actual DPR discussions, I mean, which we certainly don't need to bring up again.)

I'm not forgetting, I'm disagreeing that it does that in play. Battlemaster GWM is the strongest great-weapon option, but shield with Shield Master is better in play. Battlemaster/Rogues with Finesse weapons defend and attack much more successfully than GWM at the table. There are situations where GWM shines... let 'em shine, I say.

The martial feats that need nerfing are Crossbow Expert (shouldn't completely obviate disadvantage for ranged in melee) and Sharpshooter (GWM damage at range overshadows melee and warps the narrative).

GWM is fun. It's exciting (to some players) to have their huge, hairy bearbarian (you see what I did there?) chop things up.

 

[clearstream]

Its probably worth pointing out that often, the Defense style is the one actually taken by GWF-users. It generally offers more for that sort of character than the minimal damage increase of the two-handed style.

Depends, if you're going the Half-Orc Champion route, THF is appealing. I agree however that for Battlemaster GWM-users, Defense is the more favoured choice.

Regarding your actual question, martial/spellcaster balance is an issue, but so is TWF/SnB/THF balance.

TWF isn't fixed by nerfing GWM: it needs its own fix. The DW feat for a start should be made worth an ASI instead of half of one: mechanically, that really is a trap feat.
SnB is better than GWM in play. That said, it's easy to make a mediocre SnB character that will be overshadowed by the GWM character. The right choices for GWM are more obvious is the problem there.
THF is not a good pick, but it is an appealing one. It seems harmless to me. Not too much of a trap, occasionally shines.

Overall aside from TWF which mechanically sucks (that's the technical term of course), the fighting styles are reasonable, until we mix in RAW CEx and SS...

 

[Blue]

I don't like this for several reasons.

1. Now my martial ability needs spells to support? Breaks so many character concepts. This is a showstopper right here.
2. It now takes a bonus action to engage and to change targets, which impacts some of the martial classes a lot more than others.
3. If you don't know Hunter's Mark, it's now a concentration spell which really messes with the paladin who can no longer use any smite spell or things like shield of faith. Also messes with melee-based casters like some clerics.
4. The boost it gives to Hunter's Mark if you know it already is really strong - +2d6 per hit and no concentration, so you can have up other concentration spells like Bless. In addition it goes from once per short rest to basically every combat in a day, especially at the levels you can upcast where it. With a 3rd level slot it will last 16 hours without concentration (so no chance to lose it), and with a 5th level slot it will last 48 hours, so you only need to cast it every other day. In other words it doesn't even take a slot to be up. So nice with a 1 level ranger dip, a bard magical secret, or if a domain grants it.
5. This does more for TWF then great weapons - more attacks per round means you deliver the bonus damage more often. Heck, hunter's mark works with ranged as well. It's mistargeted as a GWM replacement.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm not forgetting, I'm disagreeing that it does that in play. Battlemaster GWM is the strongest great-weapon option, but shield with Shield Master is better in play. Battlemaster/Rogues with Finesse weapons defend and attack much more successfully than GWM at the table. There are situations where GWM shines... let 'em shine, I say.

The martial feats that need nerfing are Crossbow Expert (shouldn't completely obviate disadvantage for ranged in melee) and Sharpshooter (GWM damage at range overshadows melee and warps the narrative).

GWM is fun. It's exciting (to some players) to have their huge, hairy bearbarian (you see what I did there?) chop things up.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when you, as a general weapons-oriented person, are standing at the vendor's rack and about to pick up your favorite piece of metal.

Then an unwelcome voice whispers in your ear: forget about longswords, war picks, cudgels, dual daggers, quarterstaff, battleaxes, or throwing hammers. They're all relatively useless, much more so than the minor differences in the weapons tables indicate.

As a fighter you're pretty much a moron if you intend to deal damage and pick something else than a greatweapon (or ranged weapon).

This is bad. This is the fault of GWM (and SS).

PS.

Just because I don't respond to the other parts of your post doesn't mean I agree. Please let us not restart the DPR discussions here too. In this context, I want only to argue that even if GWM was fine damage-wise it is still not fine, and should never have been in the game.

 

[ro]

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when you, as a general weapons-oriented person, are standing at the vendor's rack and about to pick up your favorite piece of metal.

Then an unwelcome voice whispers in your ear: forget about longswords, war picks, cudgels, dual daggers, quarterstaff, battleaxes, or throwing hammers. They're all relatively useless, much more so than the minor differences in the weapons tables indicate.

As a fighter you're pretty much a moron if you intend to deal damage and pick something else than a greatweapon (or ranged weapon).

This is bad. This is the fault of GWM (and SS).

This is a major point.

Aside: Several people have argued that Hunter's Mark is a spell and "I don't want my Fighter to have to use spells!" To this I say, fine with me. My intent in mentioning Hunter's Mark was for the mechanics of the spell, not the spell itself. The description could easily be placed in the feat and made non-spell-like to have the same mechanics.

What if there were a general feat like the following. It would apply to many more weapon types. But would it stack too well with other feats?

Weapon Master

- Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- Choose one of the following properties or damage types: finesse, light, range, reach, special, thrown, two-handed, versatile, improvised, piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning.
- Once per turn when you hit an opponent with a weapon other than a bow using this property or damage type, roll all of the attack’s damage dice an additional time and add them to the total.
- Your attacks with a weapon using this property or damage type count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
- You may take this feat more than once, but the benefits on a weapon do not stack.

 

[clearstream]

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when you, as a general weapons-oriented person, are standing at the vendor's rack and about to pick up your favorite piece of metal.

Then an unwelcome voice whispers in your ear: forget about longswords, war picks, cudgels, dual daggers, quarterstaff, battleaxes, or throwing hammers. They're all relatively useless, much more so than the minor differences in the weapons tables indicate.

As a fighter you're pretty much a moron if you intend to deal damage and pick something else than a greatweapon (or ranged weapon).

Ah, right, sorry. I believe that the picture is more nuanced than that. See below.

This is bad. This is the fault of GWM (and SS).

PS.

Just because I don't respond to the other parts of your post doesn't mean I agree. Please let us not restart the DPR discussions here too. In this context, I want only to argue that even if GWM was fine damage-wise it is still not fine, and should never have been in the game.

So if the line of argument is that the existence of GWM makes too many weapons uninteresting, what I find is this. Players gravitate to Greatsword, Greataxe (Half-Orc), Rapier, Glaive (PAM), Shortsword, Hand Crossbow, Longbow, Heavy Crossbow. A few characters take Javelins (maybe because it has better range than Spear and Trident) or Handaxe (best light thrown?). Monks can end up with Dart (monk weapon). Clerics with Mace. Shield Master feat users can take longsword.

GWM has an impact on weapon choice, but that shouldn't be overstated. Not enough to earn a nerf.

 

[GameOgre]

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when you, as a general weapons-oriented person, are standing at the vendor's rack and about to pick up your favorite piece of metal.

Then an unwelcome voice whispers in your ear: forget about longswords, war picks, cudgels, dual daggers, quarterstaff, battleaxes, or throwing hammers. They're all relatively useless, much more so than the minor differences in the weapons tables indicate.

As a fighter you're pretty much a moron if you intend to deal damage and pick something else than a greatweapon (or ranged weapon).

This is bad. This is the fault of GWM (and SS).

PS.

Just because I don't respond to the other parts of your post doesn't mean I agree. Please let us not restart the DPR discussions here too. In this context, I want only to argue that even if GWM was fine damage-wise it is still not fine, and should never have been in the game.

You convinced me you are right. GWM needs to be expanded to include other weapons. Rename it Weapons Master or something and give all weapons the ability to hit less often and do more damage. Still two handed weapons will remain unaltered but I agree that the one handed weapons deserve something as well.

 

[TwoSix]

So if the line of argument is that the existence of GWM makes too many weapons uninteresting, what I find is this. Players gravitate to Greatsword, Greataxe (Half-Orc), Rapier, Glaive (PAM), Shortsword, Hand Crossbow, Longbow, Heavy Crossbow. A few characters take Javelins (maybe because it has better range than Spear and Trident) or Handaxe (best light thrown?). Monks can end up with Dart (monk weapon). Clerics with Mace. Shield Master feat users can take longsword.

GWM has an impact on weapon choice, but that shouldn't be overstated. Not enough to earn a nerf.

That's probably fair. Assuming no CEx/SS, but leaving in GWM (assuming we agree that the -5/+10 mechanic isn't inherently problematic, which I think may be a point of contention), I'd like to see:

1) More 1d8 finesse options. Scimitar/rapier/mace, possibly? So there are S/P/B options?
2) TWF bonus action should do +mod damage by default. Fighting style should allow any two one-handers. The feat should give a damage bump close to the GWM one, and +1 AC, no ASI.
3) Versatile weapons should have their own fighting style/feat combination, preferably one that encourages tactical switching between one-handed and two-handed use.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I just made -5/+10 a thing any character can do when attacking with Strength using a Melee Weapon in two hands. No feat needed. The rest of GWM became a Cleave Feat with +1 to Strength.

If the problem is only some of the Characters or Weapons get the goodies, I'd rather the solution be spreading the goodies around, than trying to nerf them.

 

[Blue]

I just made -5/+10 a thing any character can do when attacking with Strength using a Melee Weapon in two hands. No feat needed. The rest of GWM became a Cleave Feat with +1 to Strength.

If the problem is only some of the Characters or Weapons get the goodies, I'd rather the solution be spreading the goodies around, than trying to nerf them.

Agreed - right now if you want to be a non-SA weapon attacker, GWM or SS, with Polearm Mastery not too far behind, can really surpass other weapon combonations with the right build/party. The upside is much higher is a good way to put it.

I don't mind feats that say "this is how I want to fight", but I'd prefer them to be in the same realm as each other. Shield Mastery and TWF don't keep the pace, and fall further behind when you start adding in class features like more crits or more weapon dice on crit, because those favor the larger dice as well. Or even superiority dice that get used to turn a miss into a hit, if that hit does d6+mods instead of 2d6+mods, that's a significant change.